Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by acerrak

you need to go back and look up the scripturtes we have been debating over since the beginning of the topic. it will shed light on what we are talking about.

pretty much every one here except for one agrees we are not born with sin, Its done been discussed. considering the other scriptures use we do have a sinful nature. How ever that doesn mean we are born with Sin.

So when some one says reformed. the idea is the original sin doctrine that pops in my mind, which were not really discussing.

Every person in the world will eventually will sin, permitted they grow. The only one who never did was Jesus.

However everyone baby that is born has a sinful nature. that doesnt mean its born with sin, it means the baby at some point in time permitted to grow will sin. you cannot disagree with that statement.

already read everything and nothing new. The bolded part is not even remotely close to the usage of "nature." Thus why your whole usage is wrong.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Theres no such thing as a original sin nature that automatically damns folks. Thats from Saint Augustine, not the scriptures.

correct

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Theres no such thing as a original sin nature that automatically damns folks. Thats from Saint Augustine, not the scriptures.

this is what happeneds when people jumps into the conversation, and doesnt read anything. except the last page.

no one is talking about being born already guilty of sin.

we have been defending that babies are born sinless the whole time dude.
but babies just like us, have a sinful nature, meaning when they grow they will sin. so the only one who was condeming babies was jacobs ladder. again people need to start from the basis of the conversation

were not going any further than that.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

already read everything and nothing new. The bolded part is not even remotely close to the usage of "nature." Thus why your whole usage is wrong.

nature descibes the activities of humans. and humans sin, infact only one human never sinned.

So nature in that respect is used correctly.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by acerrak

nature descibes the activities of humans. and humans sin, infact only one human never sinned.

So nature in that respect is used correctly.

Man can develop a sinful nature or mindset. He is not born with it. Will man fall into sin as you said? So far the answer is yes. did Adam and Eve have a sinful nature from the beginning according to this "scope of meaning?" Yes they did. That though is really stretching how the term "nature" is used. Having the ability to does not mean one has or as yoru point one is guilty of. Failing once in a while does not mean the whole is dominated by some "sinful nature." Does man have a tendency considering the overall condition? Yes and Adam and Eve faced that as well. Adam and Eve did not have a divine nature imparted to them as a counter balance to evil. THey had reasoning of conscious which is a gift of God to do or not.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Man can develop a sinful nature or mindset. He is not born with it. Will man fall into sin as you said? So far the answer is yes. did Adam and Eve have a sinful nature from the beginning according to this "scope of meaning?" Yes they did. That though is really strwetching how the term "nature" is used. Having the ability to does not mean one has or as yoru point one is guilty of. Failing once in a while does not mean the whole is dominated by some "sinful nature." Does man have a tendency considering the overall condition? Yes and Adam and Eve faced that as well. Adam and Eve did not have a divine nature imparted to them as a counter balance to evil. THey had reasoning of conscious which is a gift of God to do or not.

ok Buddy its your turn to answer these questions. Because me aquilla and prax all had the similiar answers now. ill qoute from jacobs ladder what he asked us.

and since you want in on the topic you can do the same, i will wait for your respeonce

From Jacobs ladder
Please solely answer the two questions only. Thank you.


Psalms 58:3
These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Please describe David's comment of "people are born sinners."


David states in Psalms 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

What did David mean by "I was sinful at birth?'

i await your responce

[LUKE2447]

"Your hands have made me and fashioned me" (Psalm 119:73)

Psalms 58:3
These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Psa 58:3 The wicked turn aside from birth
liars go astray as soon as they are born.1

Look at the context. He is speaking with a certain type of language and slant to specific people. Train up a child in the way they should go. He is speaking of a specific people those who are wicked not EVERYONE. It is not about ALL MEN! From birth wicked people are brought to a place in which they are fed unrighteousness.


"Your hands have made me and fashioned me" (Psalm 119:73)

"Know that the LORD, He is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;" (Psalm 100:3).

God makes us after that from birth we are fashioned some wicked some not.

Please describe David's comment of "people are born sinners."

"Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

So God made us born sinners? Using David meaning to overule the general understanding of mans constitution from the beginning is flawed. David is using a type of language to relay meaning not be self contradictive.




David states in Psalms 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

uh nice translation witha theological presentment vs translation.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold "I" was brought forth in iniquity. As all we are brought forth under the provision given to us by Adams sin. Thus he is brought forth from conception to birth under the natural laws resultant of Adam. In pain was he brought forth to his mother as a result as well. The second passage has nothing even remotely close to do with his nature but the actions or reality of his mother. It also is related to the condition in which he was conceived under the provision of Adams sin and natural law of conception. All of our envrioment in which we deal is in fallen enviroment. He was not conceived alien to the enviroment which man had been cursed with. JEsus was. Thus the whole of the context is about curse of Eve and Adam from a point of view of under what conditions was his existance in relations to the reality of his mothers. Nothing in here about a sinful nature but how he came to exist and under what enviroment which is curse related condition.

I was born under the conditions of sin(Adam's curse) from birth, because under those conditions my mother conceived me.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

"Your hands have made me and fashioned me" (Psalm 119:73)

Psalms 58:3
These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Psa 58:3 The wicked turn aside from birth
liars go astray as soon as they are born.1

Look at the context. He is speaking with a certain type of language and slant to specific people. Train up a child in the way they should go. He is speaking of a specific people those who are wicked not EVERYONE. It is not about ALL MEN! From birth wicked people are brought to a place in which they are fed unrighteousness.


"Your hands have made me and fashioned me" (Psalm 119:73)

"Know that the LORD, He is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;" (Psalm 100:3).

God makes us after that from birth we are fashioned some wicked some not.



"Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

So God made us born sinners? Using David meaning to overule the general understanding of mans constitution from the beginning is flawed. David is using a type of language to relay meaning not be self contradictive.




David states in Psalms 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

uh nice translation witha theological presentment vs translation.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold "I" was brought forth in iniquity. As all we are brought forth under the provision given to us by Adams sin. Thus he is brought forth from conception to birth under the natural laws resultant of Adam. In pain was he brought forth to his mother as a result as well. The second passage has nothing even remotely close to do with his nature but the actions or reality of his mother. It also is related to the condition in which he was conceived under the provision of Adams sin and natural law of conception. All of our envrioment in which we deal is in fallen enviroment. He was not conceived alien to the enviroment which man had been cursed with. JEsus was. Thus the whole of the context is about curse of Eve and Adam from a point of view of under what conditions was his existance in relations to the reality of his mothers. Nothing in here about a sinful nature but how he came to exist and under what enviroment which is curse related condition.

I was born under the conditions of sin(Adam's curse) from birth, because under those conditions my mother conceived me.

So God made some people wicked?

[acerrak]

who is the wicked verses the rightous luke? whats the difference? concerning babies?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

I suppose you could force that to fit, if you pushed hard enough.

Cannot see how speaking of being dead in trespasses and sins is not spiritual death. It certainly is not physical.