Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by acerrak

it doesnt matter were he was created at. Death was not in the world till he sinned. If he never sinned common sense tells you he would never die.

and yes it went back to dust because death passed into the world.

If adam never sinned we all would still be in Genesis chapter 2 and there would be no rest of the book.

so its plain to see that because of adams sin he would die, and from his death he would decay.

your trying to make the scriptures say something that is not there.

Unless that is speaking of spiritual death

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Unless that is speaking of spiritual death

If it was spiritual death alone it makes no sense. God had to remove Adam from the Garden so that Adam would not eat of the fruit of life and live forever. Live forever in what manner? Spiritually or physically? Applying that to spiritual death means that Adam was not spiritually dead when he sinned until after God removed him from the Garden. In other words, Adam would not spiritually die unless God removed him from the Garden. If Adam sinned, that was already spiritual death. God would not need to remove him from anything to have Adam spiritually die. The only thing that makes sense is Adam died spiritually the moment he sinned, and physical death would ensure unless God did not remove him from the tree of life. This makes the tree of life a remedy for sin let alone a provision of Life.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Unless that is speaking of spiritual death

well his relationship with God changed from when he was in the Garden. But he didnt stop haveing a relationship with God, after the fall either.

So its possible it could be a spiritual death. However even after sin they were still in the Garden and God made clothes for them. He kicked them out because of the tree of Life. He didnt want them to live everlasting in there sinful state.

so some could view it a spiritual death, though i know God didnt stop dealing with them after they left the garden either.

have you ever read any of the books of adam by chance?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by SRM

I am pointing out Adam was made of decaying substance to begin with.He was made with NO LIFE in him when He was created,It is right there in your Bible too

Not true. Death had no part of Adam til he sinned. Returning to the ground was not mentioned until Adam sinned. Otherwise removing him from the tree of life and the Garden so he could die makes no sense if was going to die anyway and if it was only spiritual death.

You are saying God had to remove Adam from the Garden so HE COULD SPIRITUALLY DIE. Adam already spiritually died when he sinned.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If it was spiritual death alone it makes no sense. God had to remove Adam from the Garden so that Adam would not eat of the fruit of life and live forever. Live forever in what manner? Spiritually or physically? Applying that to spiritual death means that Adam was not spiritually dead when he sinned until after God removed him from the Garden. In other words, Adam would not spiritually die unless God removed him from the Garden. If Adam sinned, that was already spiritual death. God would not need to remove him from anything to have Adam spiritually die. The only thing that makes sense is Adam died spiritually the moment he sinned, and physical death would ensure unless God did not remove him from the tree of life. This makes the tree of life a remedy for sin let alone a provision of Life.

But this assumes the tree of life and living forever means physical and not spiritual OR...

Consider this..Adam and Eve would have died anyways. What kept them alive was regularly partaking of the Tree of Life? :-)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by acerrak

well his relationship with God changed from when he was in the Garden. But he didnt stop haveing a relationship with God, after the fall either.

So its possible it could be a spiritual death. However even after sin they were still in the Garden and God made clothes for them. He kicked them out because of the tree of Life. He didnt want them to live everlasting in there sinful state.

so some could view it a spiritual death, though i know God didnt stop dealing with them after they left the garden either.

have you ever read any of the books of adam by chance?

Books of Adam?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But this assumes the tree of life and living forever means physical and not spiritual OR...

Consider this..Adam and Eve would have died anyways. What kept them alive was regularly partaking of the Tree of Life? :-)

It has to be physical death involved as penalty either way, while we know spiritual death was involved. Follow the thought. It cannot be spiritual death God implied in removing Adam from the Garden, since Adam sinned and died spiritually in the moment he sinned already. The only alternative is like you said -- Adam was eating from the tree of life to remain physically alive. At any rate, physical death is the only conclusion we can say was the death God implied in removing Adam from the Garden.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Follow the thought. It cannot be spiritual death if Adam sinned and died spiritually in that moment already, when God said He had to remove Adam from the Garden. The only alternative is like you said -- Adam was eating from the tree of life to remain physically alive. At any rate, physical death is the only conclusion we can say was the death God implied in removing Adam from the Garden.

Adam died Spiritually. His penalty was to be removed from the Garden where the Tree of Life was.

Because he no longer had access to the Tree of Life he would die. He was already able to die already but the Tree of Life kept Him alive.

That is why God says

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

They died before God booted them from the garden

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Adam died Spiritually. His penalty was to be removed from the Garden where the Tree of Life was.

Because he no longer had access to the Tree of Life he would die. He was already able to die already but the Tree of Life kept Him alive.

That is why God says

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

They died before God booted them from the garden

They died spiritually the moment they sinned, yes. before they left the Garden. But removal from the Garden was not for them to die in a way they already experienced. lol. The removal from the Garden is SOLELY for physical death. But I see your point in how you could say they would still physically die before sin, although I disagree.

[mfblume]

I doubt very much they had to keep eating the fruit of life before sin to stay physically alive. Jesus resurrected from the dead after dying a physical death for our sins. Death has no more dominion over him. This shall happen to us. And it is a restoration of what Adam lost. Why would a physical death pay for our sins if we only died spiritually due to sin? I believe they had not touched the fruit of life before they sinned. It seems satan had to get the forbidden fruit in them before the fruit of life. imho.