Who are the Saints in this verse?

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You didn't answer my question. Im not surprised. Where else, except when His church is backslidden, does he openly say he is giving someone power to come against them?

Does God have to say he gave power over the church? Or does evidence it happened plain enough English?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

Does God have to say he gave power over the church? Or does evidence it happened plain enough English?

Im pointing out that in this instance it was not just something that happened but there is an unusual statement that God GAVE the Devil this power and I am asking why...so far one individual has understood the question and answered :-)

[Truly Blessed]

A good example is Job. God gave Satan authority to prove Job's faith. I believe tribulation will serve the same purpose prior to the rapture of the church.

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:" (Luke 18:7-9)

The saints in general will have opportunity to prove their faith during the tribulation period, not to God, but to the devil. God already knows who belongs to Him.

[Steve Epley]

The church is gone after chapter 4! The word church is NOT found again until 22. Heaven is the picture in 4 & 5 and the church is there NOT on the earth.
Thus the 'saints' mentioned cannot be the church since they are in Heaven.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The church is gone after chapter 4! The word church is NOT found again until 22. Heaven is the picture in 4 & 5 and the church is there NOT on the earth.
Thus the 'saints' mentioned cannot be the church since they are in Heaven.

It's okay for you to believe that Elder Epley, but one thing I am sure of. On this subject you will eventually have to concede that you were wrong! All the while I wish that I was the one that's wrong on this one.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

It's okay for you to believe that Elder Epley, but one thing I am sure of. On this subject you will eventually have to concede that you were wrong! All the while I wish that I was the one that's wrong on this one.

This is one of those that time will surely declare the correct interpetation!! And you will be happy I was right on this one toooooooooooo!

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The church is gone after chapter 4! The word church is NOT found again until 22. Heaven is the picture in 4 & 5 and the church is there NOT on the earth.
Thus the 'saints' mentioned cannot be the church since they are in Heaven.

This is faulty reckoning based on uninformed supposition, in my opinion.

Simply because the people of God are not specifically called the "church" is not proper authority to make such judgments.

In chapters 4 and 5 is a picture of heavenly preparation of pending judgment within the church...that is to say, among the people of God.

No where does the Word say that the saints are in heaven and not on earth.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

You obviously forget your own posts.

You said that the Spirit would be gone during the time of this reading.

Which is not the same thing as saying what you claim I'm saying. I expect you to read the words I write and take them to mean exactly and only as written.

Since you are saying that there are going to be people saved during a supposed period of time after the Spirit is gone, according to you, that is patently false. There can be no salvation without the Spirit of grace and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I also said that those people would not be part of the Church. Just because they are "saved" from eternity in the lake of fire does not make them part of the Church.

So who said that the church was gone during this time along with the Holy Ghost? Where is that found?

Follow the chronology.

So what are you saying here?

Who or what is taken out of the way? ARe you saying the Holy Ghost will be taken out of the way? Are you saying that the church will be taken out of the way? Are you saying that the Father will be taken out of the way...the Son taken out of the Way or just who are you talking about here?

I'm saying that the passage in 2 Thessalonians indicates the Holy Ghost will be taken out of the way. Of course, this also necessitates that the Church be taken out of the way since the Holy Ghost dwells within every Christian.

I don't think that you understand what the new heaven and the new earth are. If you think that the terra firma and the sky is going to pass away, you are mistaken. The bible say it will abide forever.

I say it means exactly what is written.

Do you have an inkling of what the White Throne Judgment is? It does not appear that you do.

Instead of making stupid remarks like this, explain why you think my position is wrong. The White Throne Judgement occurs after Jesus' millennial reign on Earth and is for everyone except the Church. Those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

No sir. I have not contradicted what I said. I only refuted what YOU said.

No, you contradicted yourself.

You said that the Spirit would be gone during this time frame that you have referenced. Yet, you claim that these martyered saints would be saved anyway. I am telling you if they have not the spirit of Christ (since the Holy Ghost is taken) they are none of His, according to Paul.

Your problem here is that you're trying to "interpret" what I said through the lens of your own doctrine. Yes, the Spirit will be gone (just as the Church will). These people will respond to a gospel that will be preached during that time and the vast majority of those who respond will be martyred. They will be saved from eternity in the lake of fire but they will not be part of the Church.

Did I say that the OT saints obeyed Acts 2:38? Of course not! Did I say that they had the Holy Ghost? Yes. I gave you I Peter 1:11. It is in the bible.

Since you believe that one must obey Acts 2:38 in order to be saved and that this includes having the Holy Ghost, you must also be saying the OT saints obeyed Acts 2:38 since you claim they had the Holy Ghost.

Yep. I did say it. It is bible.

Well, no, there is not even one passage of scripture that says it. It is nothing more than your interpretation of scripture!

Where does the bible say this? Chan, I am disappointed in you. I would have thought for sure that you knew the scriptues better than that.

Rom 8:9 "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Notice that it does not say what you claim it said. READ THE WORDS!!!!!!!!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The church is gone after chapter 4! The word church is NOT found again until 22. Heaven is the picture in 4 & 5 and the church is there NOT on the earth.
Thus the 'saints' mentioned cannot be the church since they are in Heaven.

careful there, Elder. You sound like something that was written in the UPC position paper when they condemned preterism. Next thing we know, you'll be making a pilgrimage to the Vatican in St. Louis.