Be Perfect Be Pure

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

How did the works righteousness thing play out for those in Sardis whose works were not perfect? Did Jesus see THEM the same as he saw the group who he counted worthy?

Who is it that was calling the shots to them? Was it a "system"?

Or was it a PERSON?

We are saved or lost by whether we have the grace (favor of God) in our lives.

Thats between Jesus and a person.

It has nothing to do with a theological "system". Salvation is not contained in mens systems but in Jesus Christ himself.

I'm saying your belief system is a system of works righteousness. You are saved by your obedience in your view.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Wages of sin is death?

Did that happen to go away with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?
What does “go sin no more less a worst thing happen to you” actually mean?

Also, thank you for your patience in this discussion.

Do you ever sin? And if you do, are you lost at that point and remain so till you repent?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Does the passage call the ones who are said to be dead "saints"? I don't see that. All the passages you list like this one and in the other posts (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira) involve people who are dead spiritually; they are not alive in true faith. You bring up extreme examples of people like Ananias and Sapphira that are irrelevant for a discussion about sincere believers who are seeking to live for Christ but who may fail in thought, word, or deed, from time to time.



Just be consistent, Michael. To be consistent with your overall view, the defiled were already lost. The only ones not blotted out are the perfect. The imperfect are blotted out. If the defiled are not qualified for immortality, they weren't in some intermediate state of not perfect but still saved. Jesus is giving them a chance to repent and be saved again. So, again, your view really doesn't allow any leeway. Just embrace the fact that your view demands that any sin brings condemnation and a person remains in that state until he repents.

But where are you seeing that prior to their repenting they are in a state of salvation? Hence the reason they are told to repent, so they can be considered saved by Jesus. I don't understand why you are so confused about this, it seems pretty clear.

[Michael The Disciple]

Costeon

Just embrace the fact that your view demands that any sin brings condemnation and a person remains in that state until he repents.

I embrace that now.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Do you ever sin? And if you do, are you lost at that point and remain so till you repent?

How do you get around this? Yes, because the wages of sin is death. No repentance, no slavation. Jesus tells the blind man which He healed to go and NEVER sin again. If he did sin again, something far worse than blindness would overtake him. Now you are the one who needs to explain somethings because I can't understand how you see Jesus' words meaning something else. Can you explain 1 John 3:7 for me?

[Evang.Benincasa]

1 Timothy 5:6 explains that a widow who is living in pleasure is DEAD even while she is still breathing. Looks like she isn't saved.

[Michael The Disciple]

Costeon


I think I now understand Michael the Disciple's position, but I still don't think I understand your position. For him perfection is sinlessness, and only the perfect are saved, so if you die in the state of imperfection, you are lost.

The perfection Im presenting here and in my videos IS "sinless" perfection. Are you saying if one dies with sin in their life that Jesus or Apostles called sin they will receive immortality-eternal life?

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I embrace that now.

I really respect this, Michael. I know we don't agree overall, but I admire your approach and willingness to thoroughly think through your position.

Thank you for this discussion.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How do you get around this? Yes, because the wages of sin is death. No repentance, no slavation. Jesus tells the blind man which He healed to go and NEVER sin again. If he did sin again, something far worse than blindness would overtake him. Now you are the one who needs to explain somethings because I can't understand how you see Jesus' words meaning something else. Can you explain 1 John 3:7 for me?

Thank you for the straightforward answer. I just wanted to make sure I definitely understood your view. Now I think I do. You are saved as long as you perfectly obey. You are lost the moment you do not perfectly obey--say you have a sinful thought toward someone here on AFF :-)--and remain lost until you repent. Your salvation is entirely based on your efforts at and success in obeying. This is not an attack on your view or disparaging it. I'm just trying to state it accurately.

What I think I am confused about now is that it seemed you were disagreeing with Michael at the beginning of this thread, but it seems his view of perfection and your view of maturity are identical.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The perfection Im presenting here and in my videos IS "sinless" perfection. Are you saying if one dies with sin in their life that Jesus or Apostles called sin they will receive immortality-eternal life?

I believe that as long as I have faith in Christ, trusting him alone for salvation, and am seeking to live for him as Lord, which is evidence of the presence of saving faith, that God considers me holy, blameless, and above reproach in his sight, though in fact I may fail at times. That is the hope and good news of the Gospel!

I base this in part on Col 1.21-23: 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.

The condition that Paul puts on this is that if "you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel." I don't understand that to be sinless perfection, but absolute trust in Christ and dependence on him and his work on the Cross for salvation.

When I have this living faith, my "life is hidden with Christ with God" (Col 3.3). I am covered with his righteousness. Out of gratitude for this free gift and a desire to obey the Lord I will seek to put on the new man and put off the old man--I will seek to become in reality what he has already bestowed on me positionally in Christ: the free gift of righteousness. Praise God!

So let's say, in a moment I am not kind or humble or meek (Col 3.12) toward someone and in the next moment I die. No, I don't think that in that moment of sin that I was unjustified, unadopted, unreconciled, divorced, and condemned to hell. I may in fact lose out on reward but I am secure eternally in Christ, since I died having lived a life of faith depending on Christ alone for salvation.

Yes, of course, I think a person with genuine faith will live a life characterized by obedience, but I don't think my relationship with God is so tenuous that the least mistake destroys it and makes me hellbound till I seek for forgiveness. If I am slipping and failing, then God will discipline me to get me to repent and get back on course--because I am his child, not because I am lost.

I do think that someone can be lost if he ceases having faith in Christ and rejects the cross as the only means of his salvation and turns away to live with no regard for the Lord.