This Shocked Me - JTS to allow gays

[SDG]

Read 10 and 11 last night ... and came to the same conclusion

Also, it says through OUR MERCY shall Israel obtain mercy. That means, the same mercy we received in the GOSPEL is how Israel will be saved. Not by something other than the church. The New Testament NEVER SAID Israel can be saved outside the church. Reading both Romans 10 and Romans 11 shows Israel will be saved IN THE CHURCH

The last verses of Chapter 11 are crucial to understanding this text.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Read 10 and 11 last night ... and came to the same conclusion


The last verses of Chapter 11 are crucial to understanding this text.

what was your belief before this??

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

what was your belief before this??

I don't know if I had a belief before this ... of course ... It's obvious that Israel will one day recognize him as the Messiah and obtain the mercy we agree upon ...

... I'm not a dispensationalist ... yet I still believe that God has some unfinished business ....w/ Israel .... and the Jewish people ....there is something to say about covenants ... that's what I think.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I don't know if I had a belief before this ... of course ... It's obvious that Israel will one day recognize him as the Messiah and obtain the mercy we agree upon ...

... I'm not a dispensationalist ... yet I still believe that God has some unfinished business ....w/ Israel .... and the Jewish people ....there is something to say about covenants ... that's what I think.

Dan,

You have some clarity, but you are still seeing through a dark glass. The Old Covenant is gone. The promises were to the seed of Abraham. You are the seed of Abraham. God does not have two covenants silmutaneously.

P.S. The answer to your question "how were sins remitted in the OT" is found in Hebrews 9.

[mfblume]

Hi all,

Israel indeed must come to God through the church. The New Testament says nothing about any other means.

Some say the Old Testament overlooked the church age, since they feel Israel was expected to accept Christ and never see Christ crucified. So dispensationalism proposed PLAN A failed, and the church is PLAN B -- with the cross and all. That is why they feel the church age was overlooked by the prophets. But it actually was not. All the prophecies of the gentiles coming in are about the church age! I think saying that these prophecies of gentiles coming in actually speak of a "millennium" has done a great disservice to the church and fulfillment of prophecy.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hi all,

Israel indeed must come to God through the church. The New Testament says nothing about any other means.

Some say the Old Testament overlooked the church age, since they feel Israel was expected to accept Christ and never see Christ crucified. So dispensationalism proposed PLAN A failed, and the church is PLAN B -- with the cross and all. That is why they feel the church age was overlooked by the prophets. But it actually was not. All the prophecies of the gentiles coming in are about the church age!

Brother Blume,

I have no intention of getting into a protracted argument with you on prophecy, as I am not well studied enough in that area.

But while I am what some probably call a dispensationalist, I have never believed the Church was Plan B.

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Prophets are replete with prophecies about the church age.

That may be the view of some small portion of men calling themselves "dispensationalists," but I do not think it represents the view of many.

It certainly doesn't represent my view.

I don't know exactly where my views would fall on the lexicon...

I believe Jesus Christ will come back to rapture his church.

I believe the dead in Christ reside in a place of rest, but not The New Jerusalem. They will rise first to meet the lord in the air.

I don't believe any Jews are going to be saved between Pentecost and the rapture without the New Birth, just like us gentiles.

Beyond that, I am still pondering.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Brother Blume,

I have no intention of getting into a protracted argument with you on prophecy, as I am not well studied enough in that area.

But while I am what some probably call a dispensationalist, I have never believed the Church was Plan B.

Hi Brother,

Your version is not classic dispensationalism, I see. It is not the actual dispensationalism that is mainstream.

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Prophets are replete with prophecies about the church age.

Amen and amen.

That may be the view of some small portion of men calling themselves "dispensationalists," but I do not think it represents the view of many.

It certainly doesn't represent my view.

It really is the larger view of the stream of thought, though.

I don't know exactly where my views would fall on the lexicon...

I believe Jesus Christ will come back to rapture his church.

I believe the dead in Christ reside in a place of rest, but not The New Jerusalem. They will rise first to meet the lord in the air.

I don't believe any Jews are going to be saved between Pentecost and the rapture without the New Birth, just like us gentiles.

Beyond that, I am still pondering.

Check this out... I spoke to Parson lately and he believed the prophecies in Isaiah about Jerusalem with gates opened for gentiles to come, and sunlight not being necessary due to God's glory is not the same fulfillment as Rev 21's New Jerusalem. He actually said there were to be TWO CITIES... and they were similar because God builds them both.

I showed him this:

Premillennial Scheme

At the Second Coming of Christ

(1) Resurrection.

(2) Judgment of wicked.

(3) Judgment of Satan.

(4) Entrance into 1000 year Kingdom.

(5) Millennial city with gates open for gentiles to bring honour into it

(6) Millennial city with no need of sun and moon,m since God's glory lightens it

(7) Millennial City adorned as a bride for her husband

(8) A Millennial Temple with a river flowing from it.

(9) The river has trees on both sides whose leaves are for healing and monthly fruit for food.


At the End of the Millennium

(1) Resurrection.

(2) Judgment of wicked.

(3) Judgment of Satan.

(4) Entrance into the eternal kingdom.

(5) Heavenly city with gates open for gentiles to bring honour into it

(6) Heavenly city with no need of sun and moon, since God's glory lightens it

(7) Heavenly City adorned as a bride for her husband

(8) A Heavenly City whose temple is God and the Lamb with a river flowing from God and the Lamb.

(9) The river has trees on both sides whose leaves are for healing and monthly fruit for food.

[mfblume]

This is the note I gave to Parson to cause him to say there are TWO CITIES -- Millennial Jerusalem and Eternal New Jerusalem.

----------------------

References to Jerusalem and Israel in the Old Testament prophecies of the end are meant to be understood as spiritual statements for the Church and not natural Israel.

Dispensationalists claim New Jerusalem is not for the natural Israelites, but that Natural Israel will come to God outside anything to do with the Church, since the New Jerusalem/Church is the Bride, and Israel will never be the Bride.

The following prophecies regard JERUSALEM. Using Disp. rule of thumb, we cannot apply them to the church, nor New Jerusalem, since Disp. claims natural Jerusalem or Israel can only be understood when they are named so, and NOT SPIRITUALIZED as being the church, New Jerusalem.

The following verses indicate the chapter is addressed to Jacob which Disp. claims is natural Israel, distinguishing her from Gentiles.

Isa 60:16 KJV Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.


Isa 60:1-5 KJV Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. (4) Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. (5) Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

The above is commonly referred to as a prophecy of natural Israel in the Millennium.

Yet we read the same thing in this chapter that we read about the New Jerusalem which Disp. claims CANNOT BE natural Israel.

Isa 60:11 KJV Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Rev 21:25-26 KJV And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Isa 60:14 KJV The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Rev 21:2 KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Isa 60:19 KJV The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Rev 21:23 KJV And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Isa 61:10 KJV I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Rev 21:2 KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The next chapter in Isaiah is a continuation of the prophecy to Zion and Jerusalem.

Isa 62:1 KJV For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

Isa 62:6 KJV I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,

Isa 62:11-12 KJV Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (12) And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

We read the same language used in chapter 61 about gentiles coming to her:

Isa 62:2 KJV And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Zion and Jerusalem are the theme throughout these chapters to chapter 66! Therein we read about the wolf and lamb laying together, which Disp. claims is Millennial Israel.

Isa 65:25 KJV The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Meanwhile the entire context from chapter 62, and possibly further back, is about Jerusalem and Zion, and every chapter mentions Jerusalem at least, even the ones that read identically to Rev 21 about the NEW JERUSALEM. Disp. says the wolf and lamb is millennium and not the church, but scattered throughout these chapters about Jerusalem are statements that clearly reflect the New Jerusalem In Revelation. Is part talking about CHURCH in New Jerusalem, whenever this occurs, and another part is about natural Jerusalem? Must we conclude that references to Jerusalem when the Wolf and Lamb lay together is millennium, when New Jerusalem exists during Millennium, but that in such instances, calling it "JERUSALEM" means NEW JERUSALEM, which is the bride and church in that day?

If JERUSALEM in these chapters refers to NEW JERUSALEM, which is clearly involving the bride and church (even if Disp. says it is during millennium), then we must still spiritualize Jerusalem to not be natural Jerusalem.

Therefore, the idea of spiritualizing references to JERUSALEM as referring to the church is substantiated by even Disp., for they know very well that natural Jerusalem is not the New Jerusalem, yet they insist we cannot take prophecies to Jerusalem and apply them to the church for they insist they refer only to natural Jerusalem if they say "Jeruslaem."

I have proven, using these chapters that state things Revelation 21 states about the New Jerusalem, that everytime the prophecies speak of Jerusalem they are not speaking abvout Natural Jerusalem.

God bless!

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here is some food for thought.
http://scionofzion.com/millennium.htm

[Coonskinner]

If I am not a classic dispensationalist, how would you describe my views?

What "camp" do I fit in?