Tithing…Is it a command?

[good samaritan]

I am not advocating tithing or hell preaching, but I do feel we need to be sacrificial givers. It seems that most here argue tithing being unbiblical; do it from the standpoint that it is too much for some people to give. Why don't you ever make the argument that tithing is limiting people's giving. So many people limit their giving to ten percent. If I was going to argue against tithe teaching I think I would be promoting to do more not less.

I fear after these last generations of tithers move off the scenes churches are going to suffer. Again I don't advocate tithing as a heaven/hell issue, but sacrificial giving I do. I don't think it is any easier for the rich to give than the poor. I would never want to oppress the widow and the fatherless, but I wouldn't want to rob them of trusting God in giving.

The story of Elijah telling the widow woman to bake him first a cake seems selfish, but because of her obedience the Lord provided for her through the time of famine. There is a supernatural expectation many tithers have. I give my tithes for two reasons:

1) honor to God for what he has prospered me. Whatever income I receive I want to express to God that He is the one who provides it and I am thankful.

2)To show that I trust him to provide for me in the future. I give tithes sometimes when it is financially unrealistic, but I do it anyway to demonstrate my faith in Him. He always provides.

I know people who tithe with conviction who I have seen about to loose their home. I wouldn't dare try to convince them tithing is unscriptural when God may be working out something with their faith. I didn't convince them to start tithing and I am not going to try to convince them to stop. I will try to be there to help them were I can and look forward to hear their testimony when all is finished. I hope all those on here that argue against the tithe are not reaping from it. If you oppose tithe teaching than don't accept tithers money at your church because those people who tithe do so because someone has taught them to. They are probably the ones providing for your churches, for those who are attending at church buildings

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You KNOW what I mean. Why hide behind skewed logic? When you're nuclear family is needing to rely on food banks and utilities are at risk from being shut off... one has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.

Your first obligation is to your home. They are the believers immediately under your care.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I know people who tithe with conviction who I have seen about to loose their home. I wouldn't dare try to convince them tithing is unscriptural when God may be working out something with their faith. I didn't convince them to start tithing and I am not going to try to convince them to stop. I will try to be there to help them were I can and look forward to hear their testimony when all is finished.

Aquila's post is the answer to this snipped post from good samaritan. I fear too many have been taught to tithe for the wrong reasons and it is engraved in them. If they're tithing to get out of a financial mess, they're setting themselves up for failure. I say this because they're now relying on what their doing, the works of the law, to try to gain favor from the Lord. Hear me out, they can still pay their bills and give sacrificially (maybe less than 10%) while denying themselves of some of the common luxuries IE cell phone, cable tv, dry cleaning, dining out, whatever. However, if they give their tithes first and don't have money for their bills, they're bringing reproach upon themselves in the eyes of the lender. Yes to giving cheerfully, yes to giving sacrificially, but we are to take care of our families. If you default on a loan, you are a covenant breaker and have not lived up to the promise you made to pay that bill.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Aquila's post is the answer to this snipped post from good samaritan. I fear too many have been taught to tithe for the wrong reasons and it is engraved in them. If they're tithing to get out of a financial mess, they're setting themselves up for failure. I say this because they're now relying on what their doing, the works of the law, to try to gain favor from the Lord. Hear me out, they can still pay their bills and give sacrificially (maybe less than 10%) while denying themselves of some of the common luxuries IE cell phone, cable tv, dry cleaning, dining out, whatever. However, if they give their tithes first and don't have money for their bills, they're bringing reproach upon themselves in the eyes of the lender. Yes to giving cheerfully, yes to giving sacrificially, but we are to take care of our families. If you default on a loan, you are a covenant breaker and have not lived up to the promise you made to pay that bill.

It is starting to seem like people are saying tithing and sacrificial giving are the same thing?

[Father's Love]

Money is the basis of financial strength/power, tithing was a means to teach the children of Israel (emphasis on children) to give and recognize that God provides for them. The New Testament says to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. If we truly wanted to serve God with all our strength, we would use the money we make to provide the things our family NEEDS, then all the rest would go to the works of God. Tithing is a means for us to say "I did my part, I need do no more." Tithing is set up so we can keep our little kingdoms more than so we can give to God. Sad but true.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

It is starting to seem like people are saying tithing and sacrificial giving are the same thing?

they can be the same, but don't have to be. For some, 10% is a sacrifice for others not so much.

I'm not anti-giving (I don't know how many times I can reiterate that), but giving a mandatory 10% to the local church when you can't even pay your bills is not right. Let me add a caveat that we are to be good stewards of our money and we have to make sure we aren't being foolish with our money. But some people who have fallen on hard times who can't make ends meet and pay tithes need to be able to find mercy from their church. The last thing people need when their struggling financially is a pastor dangling them over hell if they don't give their tithes first.

Some have no problem giving 10%, but you don't see them in prayer meeting, helping out at functions, participating in outreach, etc. Cheerfully giving has more to do with it than money.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Aquila's post is the answer to this snipped post from good samaritan. I fear too many have been taught to tithe for the wrong reasons and it is engraved in them. If they're tithing to get out of a financial mess, they're setting themselves up for failure. I say this because they're now relying on what their doing, the works of the law, to try to gain favor from the Lord. Hear me out, they can still pay their bills and give sacrificially (maybe less than 10%) while denying themselves of some of the common luxuries IE cell phone, cable tv, dry cleaning, dining out, whatever. However, if they give their tithes first and don't have money for their bills, they're bringing reproach upon themselves in the eyes of the lender. Yes to giving cheerfully, yes to giving sacrificially, but we are to take care of our families. If you default on a loan, you are a covenant breaker and have not lived up to the promise you made to pay that bill.

I am not saying that I would tell people to default on their mortgage in order to give to God. Most people that are in bad financial situations are because of management not because of having to give to God. I can say I personally believe that probably 90% of those who struggle financially it is management issues. People have to have all the luxuries possible and if they got it they may put a dollar in the pan.

houses nicer than they can afford- $500-600rent vs. $800-1200+
cars nicer than they can afford- $2500 or less vs. $10,000 or more
internet - doing without it vs. $50mo.
satellite T.V. - doing without it vs. $50mo.
smart phones - doing without it vs. $75mo. per line
vacations - doing without it vs. $2,000 annually

I know I'm meddling now, but really I don't know why we call people poor that are able to afford these things. When the Bible refers to the widows and the fatherless I don't picture them watching a big screen with 100+ channels, but they were actually facing malnutrition and starvation. We say we don't have anything to eat when we run out of the foods we like in the fridge. Many say they shouldn't give ten percent to God, but if you looked at their expenses each mo. you would find that they spend far more than ten percent on things they want that is not necessary.

Would you all agree that where your treasures are there is were your heart will be also. Maybe there is some situations where people are truly poor and can't afford to give, but most in this nation just aren't willing to get out of their comfort zones.

[good samaritan]

I am not against enjoying things in life. The Bible says not to muzzle the ox that treads the corn and I think that applies to every field of labor not just preachers of the gospel. I think we should enjoy things in life, but it should be in the proper order. By all means take care of your family see to it they have food, shelter, clothing, etc.

After you take care of the necessary stuff then what is the next thing of importance on your list?
Is it a cable bill(so that you can spend countless hours of wasted time instead praying and studying the word)
is to pay for internet(so we can spend all of our time on social media instead of getting out and making real friends who need Jesus)
is to drive a new car (so we can cause others to covet and pursue after things they can't afford and possibly we cannot either)

To all that argue here against tithing I agree that when we try to make tithing carry over like it is a NT law we don't have enough biblical evidence to preach it in such a way. When you look deeper though you find tithing wasn't enough. For those who do tithe they do it and feel like they have done their part for the kingdom of God and many feel like that they are made close to God by their own merits.
When you get to the heart of the matter when we really love and are led by Gods' spirit of love we give cheerfully and bountifully and ten percent is blown away. No one is exempt of this, when you love you give. You don't give frugally, but most often it is done sacrificially. The law gives us a standard to go by, but the Holy Ghost gives us a purpose to give not just doing it to obey a law.

I don't believe teaching tithing is running people from the Lord, but it is having a heart to give. I didn't say all this to convince anyone that tithing is a must, but instead giving generously is a must and for most people in this country it should exceed ten percent. We are blessed.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not saying that I would tell people to default on their mortgage in order to give to God. Most people that are in bad financial situations are because of management not because of having to give to God. I can say I personally believe that probably 90% of those who struggle financially it is management issues. People have to have all the luxuries possible and if they got it they may put a dollar in the pan.

houses nicer than they can afford- $500-600rent vs. $800-1200+
cars nicer than they can afford- $2500 or less vs. $10,000 or more
internet - doing without it vs. $50mo.
satellite T.V. - doing without it vs. $50mo.
smart phones - doing without it vs. $75mo. per line
vacations - doing without it vs. $2,000 annually

I know I'm meddling now, but really I don't know why we call people poor that are able to afford these things. When the Bible refers to the widows and the fatherless I don't picture them watching a big screen with 100+ channels, but they were actually facing malnutrition and starvation. We say we don't have anything to eat when we run out of the foods we like in the fridge. Many say they shouldn't give ten percent to God, but if you looked at their expenses each mo. you would find that they spend far more than ten percent on things they want that is not necessary.

Would you all agree that where your treasures are there is were your heart will be also. Maybe there is some situations where people are truly poor and can't afford to give, but most in this nation just aren't willing to get out of their comfort zones.

I agree with much of what you say here. We Americans strap ourselves with debt to uphold a certain lifestyle when with just a little patience we could have the same lifestyle and not be in so much debt. It's hard not to have a mortgage, but some of this other stuff we could buy it used for cash and still maintain a nice living. Part of our obsession with materialism causes us to have to send mom to work when she should be home with the kids. Ah but then we might have to have a 1200 SF home instead of and 1800 SF home! God forbid!

Now having said all of that, I know many pastors who would not like their sheep to hear this message of "downsizing" because it might result in Christians living on less income but less income might mean less tithes! And all of this correction we are dishing out here towards church embers on downsizing needs also to be addressed to some pastors who build fancy church buildings that strap the people of God with debt, all for their own egos. The latter is why many preachers do harp on tithing.

[KeptByTheWord]

Flaming, Bro. Epley, UnTraditional... or anyone else who is in the pro-tithers camp...

In the setting of OT tithing, which we see discussed in Duet. 14, please comment on how the OT tithing system was taught by Paul to have undergone a change, and transformation in the NT (providing scripture please) and how that understanding translates into the tithing mandate that we have taught today?

For the record, here is the Deut. reference:
Duet. 14:22-29
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Even though most tithing teaching almost always originates from the OT, I have yet to have heard tithing taught in the setting of the OT (bringing your increase once every 3 years etc.)... most of the time the Malachi curse is used instead... and it would be interesting to hear where Paul taught on the change, and exactly how it changed from bringing tithes every 3 years to paying it off your gross income weekly.

I truly believe those in the pro-tithing camp are scared to admit that if the 10% tithing doctrine was tossed out the window in light of the more scriptural NT teaching of giving according as the Lord has blessed you (1 Cor. 16:1-2), the bottom line is that they are worried about where their next paycheck will come from, for if their people don't have a "mandate" to give, then they may not give at all. Could I be right?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I agree with much of what you say here. We Americans strap ourselves with debt to uphold a certain lifestyle when with just a little patience we could have the same lifestyle and not be in so much debt. It's hard not to have a mortgage, but some of this other stuff we could buy it used for cash and still maintain a nice living. Part of our obsession with materialism causes us to have to send mom to work when she should be home with the kids. Ah but then we might have to have a 1200 SF home instead of and 1800 SF home! God forbid!

Now having said all of that, I know many pastors who would not like their sheep to hear this message of "downsizing" because it might result in Christians living on less income but less income might mean less tithes! And all of this correction we are dishing out here towards church embers on downsizing needs also to be addressed to some pastors who build fancy church buildings that strap the people of God with debt, all for their own egos. The latter is why many preachers do harp on tithing.

I am a pastor and recently I was talking to someone about people living extravagantly( it had nothing to do with giving), and the many times it bothers others when they see someone else doing well. This man that I was talking to was car mechanic and he owns a 2013 corvette and 2010 escalade and lives in a nice home. He said that he felt many don't bring their business there because they think he is doing things crooked because of his possessions.

I feel that as a minister I would not own a corvette or other luxury vehicles even if it was something I could afford having. As a pastor I live in a glass house and people are watching me and how I conduct myself. Living modestly in every area is important not only because it frees up our finances, but it also keeps us free of reproach that hurts our witness. Christian living is Christian giving.

Also our church isn't much over 1200sf, but it is paid for and we are growing. We should not be so weighted down with paying for a building that we can't make wise investments to promote the gospel. I know many churches who probably hurt there witness always having fundraisers ever time you turn around. If we evangelize, establish, and equip people the church body will grow and the bigger building will be needed. It is about souls not buildings and I think most tithe teachers and spirit led giving teachers agree about this.