Could Barak Obama be the Anti Christ?

[Falla39]

Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues,

TRF it all happened in 70 AD. We are now living in the "new earth"! Isn't that exciting. The new earth
is here and its full of murder, corruption, child abuse and homosexuality. Isn't Christ's Kingdom wonderful????????

Many times children in the church do not realize the privilege they have or
had, to be born into a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar
(purchased, possession). We should be showing forth the praises of HIM who has called
us out of darkness(the absence of light) into His marvellous light: which in times past
were not a people, but are now (presently) the people of God: which had not obtained
mercy, but now(presently) have obtained mercy.(as in 1Peter 2:9,10) Quote by Falla39.


Adam and Eve probably did not understand/perceive what the "Garden" really was, or
its worth/value, until they were cast/driven out! Perhaps they took it for granted. How
many third and fourth generations, raised Apostolic, do not or have never realized just
what the "Truth/Church" meant until they found themselves outside, living in a world of
darkness (absence of light/truth). What happens to the children/grandchildren of those
who were "born in king's houses/households of faith). Knowing what I know and having
been raised in a household of faith, it would be easy to see why I could find myself
wailing and gnashing my teeth to see what had become of my children and grandchildren
and future generations of mine, simply because I refused to hear what my elders tried to
pass on to me. WHO would care more than those that birthed me, nurtured and cared
for me in the home and in the church.
When I see churches, organizations, homes and families divided on every side, I recall
that a house/kingdom divided against itself CANNOT stand, I realize there is trouble and
danger ahead!

This is not to offend anyone, but to stir up our minds before it is too late.

Matt.8:8-12:

8 But the centurion replied to Him, Lord, I am not worthy or fit to have You come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant boy will be cured.

9 For I also am a man subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it.

10 When Jesus heard him, He marveled and said to those who followed Him who adhered steadfastly to Him, conforming to His example in living and, if need be, in dying also], I tell you truly, I have not found so much faith as this with anyone, even in Israel.

11 I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,

12 While the sons and heirs of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

Matt.13:13-17

13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because having the power of seeing, they do not see; and having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.

14 In them indeed is the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.

15 For this nation's heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.

17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men [men who were upright and in right standing with God] yearned to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Matt.13:36-43

36 Then He left the throngs and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him saying, Explain to us the parable of the darnel in the field.

37 He answered, He Who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

38 The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one,

39 And the enemy who sowed it is the devil. The harvest is the close and consummation of the age, and the reapers are angels.

40 Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age.

41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin] and all who do iniquity and act wickedly,

42And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth.

43 Then will the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God) shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him who has ears [to hear] be listening, and let him consider and perceive and understand by hearing.

Blessings,

Falla39

[deacon blues]

Can you name any credible scholarship that dates Revelation before 70 AD? I have never heard until now that ANYONE dated Revelation pre-70 AD. I can certainly see why you all would have to do that because it would topple the whole house of cards, regardless of all the other interpretations in other books.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Can you name any credible scholarship that dates Revelation before 70 AD? I have never heard until now that ANYONE dated Revelation pre-70 AD. I can certainly see why you all would have to do that because it would topple the whole house of cards, regardless of all the other interpretations in other books.

Credible scholars? How about these:

* James MacDonald: Date of the Apocalypse From Internal Evidence (1869)
* J.D. Michaelis - The Apocalypse (1801 English Edition)
* George Edmundson (1913) "(The Church in Rome in the First Century)

Early Church Commentaries:

Arethas
"For there were many, yea, a countless multitude from among the Jews, who believed in Christ : as even they testify, who said to St Paul on his arrival at Jerusalem : Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe. (Acts xxi. 20.) And He who gave this revelation to the Evangelist, declares, that these men shall not share the destruction inflicted by the Romans. For the ruin brought by the Romans had not yet fallen upon the Jews, when this Evangelist received these prophecies : and he did not receive them at Jerusalem, but in Ionia near Ephesus. For after the suffering of the Lord he remained only fourteen years at Jerusalem, during which time the tabernacle of the mother of the Lord, which had conceived this Divine offspring, was preserved in this temporal life, after the suffering and resurrection of her incorruptible Son. For he continued with her as with a mother committed to him by the Lord. For after her death it is reported that he no longer chose to remain in Judaea, but passed over to Ephesus, where, as we have said, this present Apocalypse also was composed ; which is a revelation of future things, inasmuch as forty years after the ascension of the Lord this tribulation came upon the Jews."

Clement of Alexandria (150-215)
"For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero." (Miscellanies 7:17.)

Epiphanies (A. D. 315-403)
States Revelation was written under "Claudius [Nero] Caesar." (Epiphanies, Heresies 51:12,)

Irenaeus' Quote (Used as Grounds for Late Date Theory)
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the Revelation. For ‘he’ [John?] or ‘it’ [Revelation?] was seen . . . towards the end of Domitian’s reign." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3)

Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name. "

"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. " (ANF 5:603).

Tertullian
“Since, moreover, you are close upon Italy, you have Rome, from which there comes even into our own hands the very authority (of apostles themselves). How happy is its church, on which the apostles poured forth all their doctrine along with their blood! where Peter endures a passion like his Lord’s; where Paul wins his crown in a death like John’s! where the Apostle John was first plunged, unhurt, into boiling oil, and thence remitted to his island-exile.”

Futurists:

David E. Aune (1977)
“The keystone of Robinson’s enterprise is an argument from silence: none of the books of the New Testament refers, either implicitly or explicitly, to the catastrophic event of the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman legions under Titus in A.D.70. Had they written after that date, so the argument runs, they would surely have at least alluded to that crucial event.” (Review of Redating the New Testament, by John A.T. Robinson, “When Was the New Testament Written?” Christianity Today 21, April 15, 1977; p. 43)

“On balance, the virtues far outweigh the faults. The book deserves wide circulation among students of the New Testament, since scholarly opinion (whether conservative or liberal) should regularly examine its assumptions and conclusions. In passing, it is perhaps important to note that Robinson makes elaborate use of the scholarship of Theodore Zahn, perhaps the most brilliant conservative New Testament scholar in the last century.. Let us hope that he will be heard.” (Review of Redating the New Testament, by John A.T. Robinson, “When Was the New Testament Written?” Christianity Today 21, April 15, 1977; p. 45)

G.R. Beasley-Murray (1983)
”The traditional belief that Revelation was written near the close of the reign of the Emperor Domitian, about A.D.96, is likely to be right, thought it is not impossible that it was written in the confused period that immediately followed Nero’s death in A.D.68.” (“Preaching the Eschatological Texts,” in Biblical Preaching: An Expositor’s Treasury, ed.; Philadelphia, PA: Westminster Press, p. 356)

continued...

[shag]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Can you name any credible scholarship that dates Revelation before 70 AD? I have never heard until now that ANYONE dated Revelation pre-70 AD. I can certainly see why you all would have to do that because it would topple the whole house of cards, regardless of all the other interpretations in other books.

DB,

In the following verse do you believe that Jesus was referring, in any way, to the destruction of Jerusulem that would take place later in 70 AD?

Mark 13:2-4 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Can you name any credible scholarship that dates Revelation before 70 AD? I have never heard until now that ANYONE dated Revelation pre-70 AD. I can certainly see why you all would have to do that because it would topple the whole house of cards, regardless of all the other interpretations in other books.

Did my list satisfy you?

[mfblume]

Deacon,

Your comic is sort of like my motto.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Can you name any credible scholarship that dates Revelation before 70 AD? I have never heard until now that ANYONE dated Revelation pre-70 AD. I can certainly see why you all would have to do that because it would topple the whole house of cards, regardless of all the other interpretations in other books.

Nice comic Deacon, is that supposed to apply to us, or to you?

Deacon, why is Revelation 11:1-2 speaking of a temple? If the temple was already destroyed why mention it? Also why mention that the Gentiles would trample down the outer court for 3 1/2 years, when that would of been 20 year old history to the reader. You always have to keep in mind that this document of the Revelation of Jesus, was read by people living in the latter part of the first century. The letter was for them, it wasn't meant to be a tease. The proverb says hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. Thousands of years have past already, and the Jews were only in Babylon for 70 years. Yet, futurists have a scenario that stretches on forever and ever, with a path littered with failed guess work.

Rev 11:1-2

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Can you name any credible scholarship that dates Revelation before 70 AD? I have never heard until now that ANYONE dated Revelation pre-70 AD. I can certainly see why you all would have to do that because it would topple the whole house of cards, regardless of all the other interpretations in other books.

Why the silence about my response showing scholars through the centuries who propose an early date? Just wondering. I mean, after you accuse us of looking for what we want the bible to say when you make this request, I would think you would respond and thank us that we proved you incorrect.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why the silence about my response showing scholars through the centuries who propose an early date? Just wondering. I mean, after you accuse us of looking for what we want the bible to say when you make this request, I would think you would respond and thank us that we proved you incorrect.

You proved nothing. I said I had never heard of anyone dating Revelation before 70 AD, so when I saw you all saying so, it was strange to me. You list scholars who propose an early date. So what? I can provide scholars who say you evolved from a monkey. I would say they weight of scholarship leans toward a later date for Revelation.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You proved nothing... I would say they weight of scholarship leans toward a later date for Revelation.

You would say? How about what the Bible says? Can you reconcile these verses with your above statement?

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The best "scholarship," and evidence, comes from its own writer, John. Ironically we do not have to look very far to find evidence for the time of Revelations' writing. Within its own pages are found all the evidence we need to determine its timeframe. The first of these is in it very first verse.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

All the understanding a person needs to properly interpret Revelation starts with this scripture; for it shows that the focus of Revelation is Jesus Christ, and not the antichrist, and it shows that it was written about “things which must SHORTLY come to pass.” This timeframe told its readers its prophecies were to come to pass “shortly,” and not in some distant time.

Other Translations for Time Language of Revelation 1:1

The use of the word “soon” in Revelation 1:1 was put there by the translators of the King James Bible, yet it isn’t an old archaic wording that has since been out dated in other translations. When we look this scripture up in newer Bible translations we find that the translators use the same type language to convey the same type of expectancy as is found in the King James. The following is a sample of several of these:

• NASU…the things which must SOON take place;
• NIV…what must SOON take place.
• TLB…the future activities SOON to occur
• NKJV…things which must SHORTLY take place.
• TEV …what must happen VERY SOON.
• RSV …what must SOON take place;
• NAS …the things which must SHORTLY take place;
• J. B. Phillips …must VERY SOON take place
• Moffat …what must come to pass VERY SOON
• Amplified …must SHORTLY AND SPEEDILY come to pass
• BBE …things which will QUICKLY take place:
• CEV…what must happen SOON.
• DRB …the things which must SHORTLY come to pass:
• GNB …what must happen VERY SOON.
• GW …the things that must happen SOON.
• MKJV …things which must SHORTLY come to pass.
• Webster …things which must SHORTLY come to pass;

If Revelation 1:1 is not the only scriptural witness that indicates a pre-AD70 date. It also contains additional scriptures that similarly explain an expectancy to see its prophecies fulfilled during the generation during which it was written. This is that list:

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 2:16
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 22:6
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Revelation 22:7
Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:10
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

This same “soon coming” language is consistent throughout the book of Revelation. The only way to get around its clear straight forward language of expectancy is to spiritualize each of these passages. This is what Dispensationalists do to make these passages fit their futurist’s end time scenarios. The problem is that Revelation gives us no indication that this type of interpretation is necessary, because its message is very clear—expect that these things will soon come to pass! This “soon” means during the generation in which Revelation was written. The Bible’s time texts all agree that these things were to “soon come to pass.” This was fulfilled during that generation when Jerusalem fell in the AD70 siege.

Revelation 22:10 is another scripture that is a key to understanding that Revelation’s prophecies were "soon" to be fulfilled. This verse deals with whether the apostle John should or should not seal Revelation’s message from his readers.

Revelation 22:10
And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.

John is told by Jesus not to seal his words because their fulfillment is “at hand.” This wording is similar to that we find in the book of Daniel. There Daniel was told to seal his prophetic message because its fulfillment was to be delayed until a later time when his 70th week would be completed.

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, SHUT UP THE WORDS, AND SEAL THE BOOK, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Where Daniel and John differs is in the fact that God told Daniel his prophecies were for a later time, but He told John that his were for a time that was soon to come. This soon coming scenario was possible during the generation of John since, by the time of Revelation’s writing, the 70 weeks of Daniel were completed, and the prophecies concerning Jesus “coming” in judgment against those who rejected His New Covenant were “soon” to take place.

Together these scriptures confirm the Book of Revelation was penned pre-AD70.