Elections Foreshadow the Antichrist

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

What is the gap theory?

The Gap Theory says that there is a Gap of time between the 69th and the 70th week in the book of Daniel.

The Gap Theory is the explanation given to reconcile the fact that Daniel prophesies 70 weeks of years, but that all the prophcies haven't come true, or rather didn't come true in the time alloted, 490 years.

There are three periods mentioned in Daniel 9:24-26. First we see 70 weeks. This totals 490 years. But in verse 25, it lists two time periods that only total 69 weeks , seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Immediately Daniel goes on to tell us something about those two periods. During the first seven weeks, 49 years, the rebuilding of the city, "the street and the wall" is to take place. Then it tells us what will happen after the sixty-two week, 434 year period. But the last week of seven years seems to have been lost. In the second part of verse 26, and especially in verse 27, we start to hear things about the AntiChrist that we know haven't yet happened. This lack needs reconciling. That's where the Gap Theory comes in.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

So you are admitting that the 3 1/2 years of Christ's ministry is not implicit but is "deduced", but we can't say of a certainty. John mentions three Passovers but even he admitted that there were many other things that Christ did that weren't recorded at the end of his gospel. We can't prove Jesus ministry was 3 1/2 years long.

DB, there's more evidence for 3½ years than just what's listed in John. For instance, the exact timing of one generation (40 years) from Jesus’ crucifixion until the Temple’s destruction in AD70. This dates correlated with the date in which Jesus was most likely born also indicates a 3½ year ministry. But the most explicit evidence is the fact that Daniel 9 states the final week ending in the middle, or 3½ days, which is 3½ years.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I am still uncertain what the 7 years (one week) is supposed to be. What, if it is what you say it is, was unfulfilled by Christ being crucified 3½ years into this 7 years? I honestly see a lot of holes with this interpretation.

Please explain what “holes” you see….

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Again, who is the "prince that shall come" who is mentioned in Daniel 9? It can't be Jesus because He is already referred as "Messiah the Prince". The lower case p used in the spelling of prince and what it describes he will do is obviously someone else.

Deacon Blues, you do understand that the capitol letters are added by either the translators or the publishers don’t you?? But if it’s any help to you, there are some translations that do have this prince written with a capitol “P.” As a matter of fact, the original 1611 King James Bible used a capitol “P” for the “Prince” in this verse.

Daniel 9:25-26 KJV-1611
(25) Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.

This capitalization aligns this prince with the “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25, thereby making both of these ‘Princes’ a reference to Jesus Christ.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Deacon Blues, you do understand that the capitol letters are added by either the translators or the publishers don’t you?? But if it’s any help to you, there are some translations that do have this prince written with a capitol “P.” As a matter of fact, the original 1611 King James Bible used a capitol “P” for the “Prince” in this verse.

Daniel 9:25-26 KJV-1611
(25) Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.

This capitalization aligns this prince with the “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25, thereby making both of these ‘Princes’ a reference to Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is the "Prince that shall come" then how do you explain that it says "the people of the prince (Jesus, as you say) that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the Sanctuary........"

You have to interpret that Christians destroyed or will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. It doesn't fit the context and the full passage.

Someone, a prince, a leader will come with military force and destroy Jerusalem and the Third Temple. Jesus didn't do this.

You still haven't answered the question of what is that final week of years if Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week. What happens to the unfulfilled 3 1/2 years based on your interpretation?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

If Jesus is the "Prince that shall come" then how do you explain that it says "the people of the prince (Jesus, as you say) that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the Sanctuary........"

You have to interpret that Christians destroyed or will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. It doesn't fit the context and the full passage.

Someone, a prince, a leader will come with military force and destroy Jerusalem and the Third Temple. Jesus didn't do this.

Actually the Bible says that He did.

God is prophetically describing the Roman Army as being His Army. This is in agreement with the parables in Matthew 21 and 22. In these Jesus said He was the One who would bring judgment against those who rejected His New Covenant. Theses verses declare it is Jesus who sends the Roman Army to destroy the rebellious their city.

Matthew 21:40-41
(40) When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
(41) They say unto him, HE WILL miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Matthew 22:7
(7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth HIS ARMIES, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

God using physical armies to bring judgment is found in the times He judged Israel for their sins. During those times He used armies such as Ai, Philistines, Babylonians, Egyptians, and Assyrians. God using heathen armies is also found in the judgment and destruction of Babylon (See Isa 13:9-11). This prophecy says it is the LORD who would come to bring this judgment, but the Bible also tells us that the Medes and Persians were the sword that carried it out. God said that Cyrus, the King of Persia, a heathen, was His “shepherd” (Isa 44:28). God used Cyrus to fulfill prophecies for both His judgment against Babylon and His timing for Daniel’s 70 Weeks. You see the progression of these in: Isa 44:24-28, Isa 45:1; Dan 5:6, Dan 5:28; Isa 45:2-3, Isa 45:13; 2Ch 36:21; Ezr 1:1-4. The same thing happened in the judgment against Egypt (See Eze 32:7-8). There God said He would be the One to bring this judgment, but the Bible says it was a heathen army that was His sword of vengeance.

As the King of kings, Jesus – alone – places men and women into leadership (see Rom 13:1-3; 1 Pet 2:13-17; Col 1:16-17). Cyrus and Titus are no different. Both were tools that the Lord God used to wield His plan in the Earth, and because God was the One using them as such, in essence, God was the One doing the work.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You still haven't answered the question of what is that final week of years if Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week. What happens to the unfulfilled 3 1/2 years based on your interpretation?

The Bible does not say anything definite about the remaining 3½ years. The first 3½ is the main issue for they deal with Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. I believe that the final 3½ may focus on the time period from the crucifixion until the baptism of Cornelius. It sounds right to me, but as I said, there is nothing in the Bible that I know of that makes this final 3½ year period conclusive.

[deacon blues]

The final 3 1/2 years can be accounted for. Its not what is left over after Christ dies, it is what is left of a final seven years leading to the Second Coming of the Lord.

The disciples asked Jesus in Matthew 24, "When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?" What Jesus describes and prophecies is great spiritual deception, cataclysmic events in nature, geopolitical instability and warfare. He says the end is not yet but that these things are just the beginning of the contractons that will bring the end.

He talks about many other signs related to His coming and the end of the age. He says that gospel would be preached to all the world, then the end would come. Finally he mentions in verse 15 that when you "see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place" everyone in Judea must flee for then great tribulation would come.

This is the abomination that Daniel mentions in 9:27. In the midst of the week is 3 1/2 years. John refers to the beast as having power 42 months in Rev. 13. John also states that Israel would be nutured in the wilderness after the dragon makes war on her for 1260 days (according to Jewish calendar = 3 1/2 years) I beleive in Rev. 12. Daniel and John make reference to both the one who makes war with the saints and the time Israel's conflict with him as a "time, times and the dividing of time" in Dan. 7 and Rev. 12. Time = 1 year. Times = 2 years. Dividing of time = 1/2 year.

You don't know what the Bible says about the remainder of Daniel's 70th Week? Here it is. I am not including Bible references cause I'm on my mobile and I can't toggle back and forth between different websites but will be at a computer later today and can give you specifics should you desire.

The end of the world, or age, has not yet come! The gospel has not yet been preached to all of the world! Christ has not yet come with the sound of the trump with voice of the archangel with the dead in Christ being resurrected and those alive and remain being "caught up" with them to meet the Lord in the air!

[deacon blues]

BTW I find the explanation for "the people of the prince that shall come" very lacking. I can't believe that God would refer to the Roman army as "the people of" Jesus Christ. Were they instruments of his judgment? Sure. But "his people"? NO.

Pieced together with the prophecy passages throughout the Bible, there's plenty to substantiate that there's more to come beyond the Jewish revolt and subsequent Roman retribution of 70 AD.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The final 3 1/2 years can be accounted for. Its not what is left over after Christ dies, it is what is left of a final seven years leading to the Second Coming of the Lord.

The disciples asked Jesus in Matthew 24, "When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?" What Jesus describes and prophecies is great spiritual deception, cataclysmic events in nature, geopolitical instability and warfare. He says the end is not yet but that these things are just the beginning of the contractons that will bring the end.

He talks about many other signs related to His coming and the end of the age. He says that gospel would be preached to all the world, then the end would come. Finally he mentions in verse 15 that when you "see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place" everyone in Judea must flee for then great tribulation would come.

This is the abomination that Daniel mentions in 9:27. In the midst of the week is 3 1/2 years. John refers to the beast as having power 42 months in Rev. 13. John also states that Israel would be nutured in the wilderness after the dragon makes war on her for 1260 days (according to Jewish calendar = 3 1/2 years) I beleive in Rev. 12. Daniel and John make reference to both the one who makes war with the saints and the time Israel's conflict with him as a "time, times and the dividing of time" in Dan. 7 and Rev. 12. Time = 1 year. Times = 2 years. Dividing of time = 1/2 year.

You don't know what the Bible says about the remainder of Daniel's 70th Week? Here it is. I am not including Bible references cause I'm on my mobile and I can't toggle back and forth between different websites but will be at a computer later today and can give you specifics should you desire.

The end of the world, or age, has not yet come! The gospel has not yet been preached to all of the world! Christ has not yet come with the sound of the trump with voice of the archangel with the dead in Christ being resurrected and those alive and remain being "caught up" with them to meet the Lord in the air!

Yes, I understand the 3½ years to which you refer. This prophetic language for time is found in other passages as well. One of those in when Elijah called for a drought in Israel that was to last for 3½ years. The 3½ years you mention are AFTER not during Daniel's 70th week. This time period occurred as follows:

The Bible prophesied a three and one-half year (42 month/1260 day) siege against Jerusalem because of her rebellion against God’s Covenant. This began in AD66 when the Roman Emperor Nero gave two simple commands: destroy the city of Jerusalem and level her temple. To accomplish this fiat he picked a father and son to lead his Roman troops. The father was a fifty-seven year old commander named Vespasian, and his ambitious son’s name was Titus. After a series of political events in Rome, Titus began his assault around April, AD70. This was forty years (one generation) to the week from the crucifixion of Christ. Titus’ soldiers breached the third Wall of Jerusalem on May 25, and captured the newer parts of the city. By June they proceeded to enter the second quarter as the Jews withdrew behind the first wall. The Antonia Fortress fell to Titus on July 22, which was followed by the Romans burning the gates of the Temple and entering its courtyards. The Temple was burnt August 10, AD70 (the Jewish Ninth of AV). This is the exact day and month on which the first Temple was burnt years before by the king of Babylon in 586 BC. Romans burned the Lower City, assaulted Herod’s Palace, and entered the Upper City around September 2. This thereby ended the Jewish resistance on September 26, AD70.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

BTW I find the explanation for "the people of the prince that shall come" very lacking. I can't believe that God would refer to the Roman army as "the people of" Jesus Christ. Were they instruments of his judgment? Sure. But "his people"? NO.

Pieced together with the prophecy passages throughout the Bible, there's plenty to substantiate that there's more to come beyond the Jewish revolt and subsequent Roman retribution of 70 AD.

I give you solid Scriptural examples and you respond about how you feel? It is hard to discuss how a person feels about any given subject unless they produce the fact from which their feelings are based. Feelings are not to produce faith which then becomes one's fact. It is the other way around. The Bible says, "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." From this we see that FACTS produce FAITH, and the FAITH produces one's FEELINGS. Why not give some Bible to show where your feelings are coming from and then we will have a productive basis from which to talk.

Be blessed!

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Yes, I understand the 3½ years to which you refer. This prophetic language for time is found in other passages as well. One of those in when Elijah called for a drought in Israel that was to last for 3½ years. The 3½ years you mention are AFTER not during Daniel's 70th week. This time period occurred as follows:

The Bible prophesied a three and one-half year (42 month/1260 day) siege against Jerusalem because of her rebellion against God’s Covenant. This began in AD66 when the Roman Emperor Nero gave two simple commands: destroy the city of Jerusalem and level her temple. To accomplish this fiat he picked a father and son to lead his Roman troops. The father was a fifty-seven year old commander named Vespasian, and his ambitious son’s name was Titus. After a series of political events in Rome, Titus began his assault around April, AD70. This was forty years (one generation) to the week from the crucifixion of Christ. Titus’ soldiers breached the third Wall of Jerusalem on May 25, and captured the newer parts of the city. By June they proceeded to enter the second quarter as the Jews withdrew behind the first wall. The Antonia Fortress fell to Titus on July 22, which was followed by the Romans burning the gates of the Temple and entering its courtyards. The Temple was burnt August 10, AD70 (the Jewish Ninth of AV). This is the exact day and month on which the first Temple was burnt years before by the king of Babylon in 586 BC. Romans burned the Lower City, assaulted Herod’s Palace, and entered the Upper City around September 2. This thereby ended the Jewish resistance on September 26, AD70.

Earlier you said:

The Bible does not say anything definite about the remaining 3½ years. The first 3½ is the main issue for they deal with Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. I believe that the final 3½ may focus on the time period from the crucifixion until the baptism of Cornelius. It sounds right to me, but as I said, there is nothing in the Bible that I know of that makes this final 3½ year period conclusive.

And then you turn around and say the 3 1/2 years is the Roman siege of Jerusalem. Which is it?

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I give you solid Scriptural examples and you respond about how you feel? It is hard to discuss how a person feels about any given subject unless they produce the fact from which their feelings are based. Feelings are not to produce faith which then becomes one's fact. It is the other way around. The Bible says, "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." From this we see that FACTS produce FAITH, and the FAITH produces one's FEELINGS. Why not give some Bible to show where your feelings are coming from and then we will have a productive basis from which to talk.

Be blessed!

Your "solid examples" are a laundry list of instances where God uses an army as a means of judgment against Israel. No one argues with that. However no where do those examples use the language of Daniel 9:26, "the people of the prince that shall come." Looking at the chronology of Daniel 9:26 "Messiah" has already been cut off. Then "the people of the prince that shall come" is mentioned. Now if Christ has already come and been crucified, how can we call him the prince that shall come? This prince is obviously someone else, not Jesus. All of your "solid examples" can't address the chronology of this passage, nor the fact that God makes a distinction from the first 69 weeks to the 70th week and the "he" in 9:27 can't be Jesus based on the context and flow of the preceding verses. You offer that the 70th week is the so-called 3 1/2 years of Christ's ministry before crucifixion. You offer no "solid" evidence for what the leftover 3 1/2 years is all about besides supposing that it is the time between the crucifixion and the baptism of Cornelius---highly speculative, and perhaps based on a "feeling"?

What about the Matthew 24 chronology? What do you do with post-70 AD scriptures in Revelation that obviously mirror what Daniel prophesied about future events to come that foretells of "the beast" in Rev. 13 who has a mouth speaking great things, just like the man of Daniel 7, the man who makes war with the saints, just like Daniel 7, a man who emerges from a confederation of nations, just like Dan 7? What about the the 42 month authority the beast is given mentioned in post-70 AD Revelation 13? 1260 days, and time, times and half a time are all referenced in post 70-AD Revelation. How can these scriptures be prophetic, if these events had taken place some 20 years before John penned Revelation?

What about the resurrection foretold by Paul in his epsitles? What about Paul's reference to the man of sin and son of perdition? John's refrence to antichrist?

The 70 AD explanation of prophecy scriptures might seem plausible in some cases, and certainly some events related to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in the first century were foretold, but it doesn't fit the body of work of prophecy that is in the Bible.

(BTW my less than convincing posts void of scriptures earlier is because I was responding lying flat on my back at 5:30 am trying to write on my mobile phone half awake)