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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1  
Old 07-29-2007, 07:56 AM
Sheltiedad
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You lost me there... you are giving a choice between God and God...
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Old 07-29-2007, 08:03 AM
Theophilus
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Originally Posted by Sheltiedad View Post
You lost me there... you are giving a choice between God and God...
No I didn't...and you know it. Coy might work at home..but not here..not with me.
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  #3  
Old 07-29-2007, 08:51 AM
Sheltiedad
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Did God create hell... yes or no?

If an arsonist sets a house on fire, but then offers to rescue the people inside... is it the fault of the person inside if they don't get out in time?
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:16 AM
Theophilus
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Originally Posted by Sheltiedad View Post
Did God create hell... yes or no?

If an arsonist sets a house on fire, but then offers to rescue the people inside... is it the fault of the person inside if they don't get out in time?
Who was hell created for? The Bride? No.

We are not talking about a sick arsonist, we are discussing the Lord our God.

We are discussing a fire that will never go out, one that is reserved for the devil and his minions alone.

No one else has to go down with him. It is their choice.

The fire is justified, the house condemned and full of all manner of corruption.

The Lord bids the Bride warning out of Love and calls her to help save as many with her as she can before He sets it aflame. You simply have it backwards.

Those who choose to believe the little liars chained in the basment will have exchanged the Love of their Lord, His warnings, and His promises of a new eternal estate, for the masked hatred of the condemned and align themselves against the Lord unto their own destruction.

We will all believe His Promises, one way or another, sooner or later.

The only difference is whether or not we believe the warning, and the promise of salvation of live eternal, now...

....or the promise of the destruction of the wicked eternal, after it is too late, later.

The choice is clearly ours.
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  #5  
Old 07-29-2007, 10:28 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Yes its past time for change. Drop the tradition of preaching beards are sin. Drop the tradition against women trimming their hair. Use TV and the Internet to preach the gospel. Show the world a Church that is not first in love with money but the Spirit of Jesus. This would be a good start.
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Old 07-30-2007, 10:18 AM
philjones
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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Yes its past time for change. Drop the tradition of preaching beards are sin. Drop the tradition against women trimming their hair. Use TV and the Internet to preach the gospel. Show the world a Church that is not first in love with money but the Spirit of Jesus. This would be a good start.
Sorry to disappoint you, Michael, but that is not the Apostolic message. If it were, KP would not have made the statement because he already did what you are suggesting many years ago.
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  #7  
Old 07-29-2007, 11:40 AM
Sheltiedad
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Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
Who was hell created for? The Bride? No.

We are not talking about a sick arsonist, we are discussing the Lord our God.

We are discussing a fire that will never go out, one that is reserved for the devil and his minions alone.

No one else has to go down with him. It is their choice.

The fire is justified, the house condemned and full of all manner of corruption.

The Lord bids the Bride warning out of Love and calls her to help save as many with her as she can before He sets it aflame. You simply have it backwards.

Those who choose to believe the little liars chained in the basment will have exchanged the Love of their Lord, His warnings, and His promises of a new eternal estate, for the masked hatred of the condemned and align themselves against the Lord unto their own destruction.

We will all believe His Promises, one way or another, sooner or later.

The only difference is whether or not we believe the warning, and the promise of salvation of live eternal, now...

....or the promise of the destruction of the wicked eternal, after it is too late, later.

The choice is clearly ours.
Okay, I think I see an analogy that fits with your scenario... How about a demolition man, and He is trying to make sure everyone gets out of the building safely before he destroys it?

The problem is that as soon as you add in the Pentecostal culture, it adds in so much red tape that very few people will ever be able to complete all the forms just to leave the building.... this I believe is why Fudge chose that title for his book...
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  #8  
Old 07-29-2007, 03:07 PM
Theophilus
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Originally Posted by Sheltiedad View Post
Okay, I think I see an analogy that fits with your scenario... How about a demolition man, and He is trying to make sure everyone gets out of the building safely before he destroys it?

The problem is that as soon as you add in the Pentecostal culture, it adds in so much red tape that very few people will ever be able to complete all the forms just to leave the building.... this I believe is why Fudge chose that title for his book...
What red tape? What forms?

While I can see what you are driving at in general, I don't believe that the Pentecostal culture, as it were, has a monopoly as say, the DMV, as to who gets out and who stays in.

Initial salvation is simple, once born again, we progress, even to the point of being useful in the salvation of others.

Now I don't know who Fudge is, but a name like that doesn't speak complete credibility to me no matter what the book may be.

Nevertheless, the mistake many have made is tying the Pentecostal culture off as the only way to the emergency exit door. This has caused some problems for those that are in it as well as without it. The later missing what is correct, the former too complacent and wise in their own conceits for their own, and consequently other's, well being.

Yet, there are many within the culture that will make it, and certainly some that won't. However, those without will be without excuse in pointing any fingers at any one culture, or sub-culture, as to why they failed. It won't wash. We all need to seek Christ all the way, and the true simplicity therein, in order to make it, regardless.

I believe some of the very last day saints will be far removed from the culture that helped deliver them the essential truths that made the difference. This doesn't speak anything against the culture, rather more so to the function of time with which they had to progress.

To whom much is given...much is expected. Those that made the complexities of the culture a stumbling block will answer for it, yet not everything about the culture is complex, neither all that are within.

The culture has gained ground in some areas, lost ground in others. Still, God seems very interested for some reason and, to be sure, not all is lost. It brings to mind:

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Those that truly seek the Lord and the gift of salvation shall find it, He will make a way, even in spite of red tape and membership forms, culture and lack thereof.
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  #9  
Old 07-29-2007, 03:10 PM
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Felicity Felicity is offline
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The title of the book has turned many away which is too bad because the information contained within is credible.
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~Felicity Welsh~

(surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
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  #10  
Old 07-29-2007, 09:47 PM
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StillStanding StillStanding is offline
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Famous Re-packaging Since the First Apostolic Church

2.0 New Testament Canon is approved to be read to the churches. Although inclusion of certain books was debated for a few generations, eventually the current list is widely accepted.
4.0 Christians went from home churches to building a community church building
15.0 Holy Bibles begin to be printed on a printing press, and the common church members are allowed to have a copy for their personal use. This was highly debated as some leaders thought the dangers of the common man misinterpreting scripture would cause the church problems.
16.0 Western Culture introduces men to wearing pants. After much debate, eventually men are allowed to wear pants in church, but platform must continue to wear robes.
16.3 Worship songs based on the equal tempered scale are introduced to the church. The change from Gregorian Chants to ‘weird’ harmonies was a hard pill to swallow and took two generations to be accepted.
16.5 The Western Apostolic church allows men to have a smooth face by shaving closely.
16.6 After much debate, the use of the modern printing press to make religious flyers and tracts is approved.
17.0 Women are allow to wear tight waisted dresses, exposing women’s hour-glass figure in public. This took two generations to be accepted as norm for the church.
18.0 Women’s ankles are allowed to show in their dress.
19.5 Organs and piano music is made a part of church worship.
19.7 Electric light bulbs are allowed in church buildings.
19.8 Roberts Rule of Order used for church business meetings.
20.2 Churches start allowing indoor toilets, and have indoor baptismal tanks.
20.3 Clean shaved faces on men and beehive hairdos on women are expected on church members
20.4 Accordions and tambourines become common church musical instruments
20.5 The Hammond Organ is ordained as the official church organ
20.51 After much debate, the use of radio to evangelize the Apostolic message is approved.
20.52 Women’s dresses up to the knee , and men wearing suits are expected church dress.
20.53 Churches start having choirs sing.
20.6 Churches start taping sermons for church members to listen to at their leisure.
20.7 Drums and guitars start showing up as churches start playing fast dance type music.
20.9 Church begin video taping services, but are not allow to show on TV.
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