Holiness dress standards-salvation or consecration

[Aquila]

If a preacher walked around nude for three years, warning that oppression and enslavement was coming, and that we'd be all carried away in bondage and shame, would that prophet be classified as being, "modest"? No. However, would that very same nude prophet still be "holy". Most definitely.

Modesty and holiness are two different things.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If a preacher walked around nude for three years, warning that oppression and enslavement was coming, and that we'd be all carried away in bondage and shame, would that prophet be classified as being, "modest"? No. However, would that very same nude prophet still be "holy". Most definitely.

Modesty and holiness are two different things.

this is a straw-man

[TakingDominion]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Too many people look at so-called "holiness standards" as what makes us holy. That is impossible, and a fallacy that degrades the Cross and Christ's finished work. You can never become holy, for holiness is an attribute of God. When we are born again, because of our faith in Christ, we are made holy. We are called to be holy, to be what we have been made in Christ.

For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. (NLT) Hebrews 10:10

When people teach that holiness is our clothes, our lack of makeup, our cut or uncut hair, it gives man the power of God to make himself like God. NOT POSSIBLE! We are made holy by Christ and then called to be what we have been made.

One other point, beloved. Going to the Old Covenant to establish holiness standards is contrary to the teachings of the New Covenant. Going back to a version of law keeping to maintain salvation neglects Christ's finished work of His fulfillment of the Law. Now, we need not keep the letter of the Law, for He has written His law on our hearts, making us holy. The Law took us to Christ. We are now in Christ, and while the Law brought condemnation, Christ brings and keep salvation.

So we can't make ourselves holy, but we can become holy?
We shouldn't teach modest dress standards... but why did the apostle Paul even bring it up then?

No one I know teaches modest dress from old testament scriptures. The only reference would be deuteronomy that has already been mentioned regarding men and women garments.

There are plenty of New Testament scriptures regarding how we should look, dress and act. What are your thoughts on those?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Too many people look at so-called "holiness standards" as what makes us holy. That is impossible, and a fallacy that degrades the Cross and Christ's finished work. You can never become holy, for holiness is an attribute of God. When we are born again, because of our faith in Christ, we are made holy. We are called to be holy, to be what we have been made in Christ.

For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. (NLT) Hebrews 10:10

When people teach that holiness is our clothes, our lack of makeup, our cut or uncut hair, it gives man the power of God to make himself like God. NOT POSSIBLE! We are made holy by Christ and then called to be what we have been made.

You're confused.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

Now I know many on this forum do not like the correlation between holiness and modest dress, and I see their point. However, it's a concept we are all familiar with; whether we agree with it or not.

My thought that I wanted to pose to the forum: do you see modest holy dress standards as salvational or having to do with consecration towards God?

I look forward to your responses.

Saved people allow Scripture to guide their lives, regardless of subject matter. Saved people are consecrated to God. Saved people are also at different points in their knowledge and understanding, compared to one another. Therefore comparing ourselves with ourselves is not wise.

There are no standards but that which is expressed in the Word, for it and it alone is THE STANDARD by which we are judged and THE STANDARD to which Jehovah's hosts rally.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

this is a straw-man

No. That's a straw-man.

[derAlte]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Holiness is simply... being conformed into the likeness of Jesus. And sanctification is that process.

Some of the biggest devils I've ever known were "spit and polished" men and women who upheld "the standards" to the letter.

But I've seen men and women who do not uphold such standards who truly reflect the love, devotion, and reality of Jesus in their lives.

I've observed the same thing. The Bible still says all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Some of these "spit and polished" folks are saying that their filthy rags are so much better than my filthy rags. This is absurd!

I serve Jesus because I love Him, not because I'm trying to maintain a position among the Apostolic Holiness elite. I want to conform to what He revealed in the Scriptures as the right path because I want to please my Friend. I suspect some of these folks either have misconceptions about the nature of God that motivates them to asceticism or are motivated by pride and a desire to dominate. In their zeal, some seem to want to try to be more holy than God. Pretty miserable place, if you ask me.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I've observed the same thing. The Bible still says all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Some of these "spit and polished" folks are saying that their filthy rags are so much better than my filthy rags. This is absurd!

I serve Jesus because I love Him, not because I'm trying to maintain a position among the Apostolic Holiness elite. I want to conform to what He revealed in the Scriptures as the right path because I want to please my Friend. I suspect some of these folks either have misconceptions about the nature of God that motivates them to asceticism or are motivated by pride and a desire to dominate. In their zeal, some seem to want to try to be more holy than God. Pretty miserable place, if you ask me.

Amen.

I've chosen not to hold myself to any human standard of perfection, but rather to hold myself to a standard of grace.

[Bro Flame]

The problem with holiness is that every church, pastor, creed, denomination, organization, individual, statement of faith describes it differently.

In many cases, we approach the Scriptures trying to prove thoughts that we already have. We've all been guilty of that a time or two I'd say. And it's wrong, too.

I'll give you an example: Someone can write off Deuteronomy 22:5 by saying a lady can wear breeches as long as they are made for females. Likewise, another could be more gender specific and say that men wear pants and ladies wear skirts/dresses. We know the verse is referencing the latter, but some could try to find a "loophole" and defend the first theory.

I don't generally like to get into discussions about holiness with many people I've affiliated myself with. The stricter side might fear that I'm fighting or simply don't believe in holiness or modest dress, while the more lenient breed might fear that I'm encouraging legalism or pride in one's "holy appearance".

Holiness is not legalism. It never has been, and never will be. Legalism is following a set of rules and guidelines without any change of heart and believing that following "rules" will save you. They won't.

In saying that, I'm not fighting or disagreeing with holiness and modest dress. I'm certainly for it. But were our fault comes in the majority of the time is when we preach it as something you just do because you've repented and possibly been baptized. I don't see it that way. We can preach holiness, modesty, and separation with love and allow God to convict the hearts of those sitting on the pews. As conviction continues, hopefully the newly converted Christian will make changes to his or her life. And those changes won't always concern one's wardrobe, but that's certainly a part of it.

Very few churches today preach holiness with love and allow people to have their hearts change and convicted before expecting them to merely fall in line with the rest of the congregation. I cannot tell you of the number of people I personally know (and have heard of) that can fall so easily in and out of holiness dress because the churches they have went to preach that one must fall in line without any sort of inner change that would lead one to dressing modestly.

We must have love and compassion when speaking, teaching, and preaching to individuals about holiness. If we lead someone to the assumption that it's just rules and guidelines, well friends, that is legalism. But holiness, separation, and following the Lord's commandments out of love and admiration for God's Word, isn't legalism. It's obedience.

I personally am not the strictest person when it comes to "holiness standards", but I do believe that one should desire to be separated from the world and the sinner. Of course, there are certain things I personally don't see as necessities, but others just might.

Praying about what God defines as holiness is the truest and easiest way to go. Make sure you're listening to the right voice though, too, because we all know ole Satan will try to shake his way into your ear and talk you out of some things. I've prayed that the Lord would show me what He wants me to see in holiness and how a holiness person should look. I cannot say anything I don't believe he's personally said to me through my prayers.

God bless!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

The problem with holiness is that every church, pastor, creed, denomination, organization, individual, statement of faith describes it differently.

In many cases, we approach the Scriptures trying to prove thoughts that we already have. We've all been guilty of that a time or two I'd say. And it's wrong, too.

I'll give you an example: Someone can write off Deuteronomy 22:5 by saying a lady can wear breeches as long as they are made for females. Likewise, another could be more gender specific and say that men wear pants and ladies wear skirts/dresses. We know the verse is referencing the latter, but some could try to find a "loophole" and defend the first theory.

I don't generally like to get into discussions about holiness with many people I've affiliated myself with. The stricter side might fear that I'm fighting or simply don't believe in holiness or modest dress, while the more lenient breed might fear that I'm encouraging legalism or pride in one's "holy appearance".

Holiness is not legalism. It never has been, and never will be. Legalism is following a set of rules and guidelines without any change of heart and believing that following "rules" will save you. They won't.

In saying that, I'm not fighting or disagreeing with holiness and modest dress. I'm certainly for it. But were our fault comes in the majority of the time is when we preach it as something you just do because you've repented and possibly been baptized. I don't see it that way. We can preach holiness, modesty, and separation with love and allow God to convict the hearts of those sitting on the pews. As conviction continues, hopefully the newly converted Christian will make changes to his or her life. And those changes won't always concern one's wardrobe, but that's certainly a part of it.

Very few churches today preach holiness with love and allow people to have their hearts change and convicted before expecting them to merely fall in line with the rest of the congregation. I cannot tell you of the number of people I personally know (and have heard of) that can fall so easily in and out of holiness dress because the churches they have went to preach that one must fall in line without any sort of inner change that would lead one to dressing modestly.

We must have love and compassion when speaking, teaching, and preaching to individuals about holiness. If we lead someone to the assumption that it's just rules and guidelines, well friends, that is legalism. But holiness, separation, and following the Lord's commandments out of love and admiration for God's Word, isn't legalism. It's obedience.

I personally am not the strictest person when it comes to "holiness standards", but I do believe that one should desire to be separated from the world and the sinner. Of course, there are certain things I personally don't see as necessities, but others just might.

Praying about what God defines as holiness is the truest and easiest way to go. Make sure you're listening to the right voice though, too, because we all know ole Satan will try to shake his way into your ear and talk you out of some things. I've prayed that the Lord would show me what He wants me to see in holiness and how a holiness person should look. I cannot say anything I don't believe he's personally said to me through my prayers.

God bless!

I think we need to preach holiness as entire sanctification of the whole person, as a definite work of grace, as something God offers to those willing by faith to receive it. Key idea being it is God's work in the believer, by faith.

A promise to receive more so than a threat to conform.

And "standards" are a separate issue.