List of grace giving churches.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

When I had my own church,

On my next church

Do such statements come rather naturally to you?

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

If I were in Decatur I would visit for sure. Sounds like a place I would enjoy.

I am however in Ohio. You and Rudy raise an interesting point about starting churches that go against the current. The problem is, I'm not so sure about doing it. I am in a very strong, stable, large church. It is a very good church in most ways. Now, I have a real problem with the tithing nonsense and some of the "standards" (that our Pastor admits to us ministers are just tradition, but he will not stop preaching b/c he feels he doesnt have the right to remove the lines the previous leaders of our movement have put up), but it is still a great church.

So do I leave a very good church that is stable and I can be saved in, just to start a small home meeting or church just over tithing and a couple standards? Do I take my children out of a church where they have a fantastic childrens program and tons of kids to a church where it may be just them alone? And how do I convince my wife, who loves the church and tends to always only see the good in things like church, that we would be better off starting a church or group that doesn't preach garbage like tithing? If shes not on board with it, then it's going to be next to impossible.

It's easy to say "just start a church that doesn't preach that stuff", or even "go find another church", but in reality...it's not easy at all. I have hoped that I could change the church from within, but I know that is not the case in these areas.

No need if you are content.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do such statements come rather naturally to you?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

If I were in Decatur I would visit for sure. Sounds like a place I would enjoy.

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I am however in Ohio. You and Rudy raise an interesting point about starting churches that go against the current. The problem is, I'm not so sure about doing it. I am in a very strong, stable, large church. It is a very good church in most ways. Now, I have a real problem with the tithing nonsense and some of the "standards" (that our Pastor admits to us ministers are just tradition, but he will not stop preaching b/c he feels he doesnt have the right to remove the lines the previous leaders of our movement have put up), but it is still a great church.

So do I leave a very good church that is stable and I can be saved in, just to start a small home meeting or church just over tithing and a couple standards? Do I take my children out of a church where they have a fantastic childrens program and tons of kids to a church where it may be just them alone? And how do I convince my wife, who loves the church and tends to always only see the good in things like church, that we would be better off starting a church or group that doesn't preach garbage like tithing? If shes not on board with it, then it's going to be next to impossible.

It's easy to say "just start a church that doesn't preach that stuff", or even "go find another church", but in reality...it's not easy at all. I have hoped that I could change the church from within, but I know that is not the case in these areas.

Nitehawk, I can completely understand where your coming from, I may not answer all your concerns, but let me address at least some of them.

First, I don't think you'll find a post of me ever saying leave your church and start a work of your own, especially over the doctrine of tithing. I think it is important to correctly understand the doctrine of tithing for a number of reasons, the first of which is that a MISunderstanding of tithing, can affect how we understand the grace of God, and thus result in someone serving God out of a motivation of fear, rather than faith, and see God as a hard task master to be appeased, rather than a gracious loving Father.

I wouldn't suggest leaving a church where you are happy, stable, and most importantly growing in Christ. Anyone who really studies the word free of denomination biases is probably not going to agree with 100% of the doctrines, and especially 100% of the preachers views. Its been said no 2 preachers agree on everything, and I'd venture to say no 2 studious saints agree on everything. I do not suggest breaking fellowship. I suggest studying the issue, keeping a good spirit-even in the face of opposition or pressure to conform(should it come), let your life in Christ speak for itself.

IMO, if tithing is the no.1 doctrine that someone is worried about, I think that's a red flag about the condition of their heart. If you really want to be in a oneness church, most of them believing in tithing. Some don't, but the great majority do. So unless you are moving towards adjusting your stance on other doctrinal beliefs, I would suggest staying where you are.

I left the oneness Pentecostal church because my view of salvation changed from "3 steps" to justification by faith. I still believe in oneness, and baptism in Jesus name. I still believe in speaking in tongues (but I reject the initial evidence doctrine, and deny that all born again believers speak in tongues). I still believe in holiness and separation from the world (but deny that standards are matters of salvation, rather they are best viewed as principles that we can incorporate into our lives as we seek to be led by the Spirit).

I still enjoy Pentecostal worship, and overall have a favorable view of the Pentecostal church. If something happens in the church I'm attending/leading now, I wouldn't rule out attending a Pentecostal church again, even if they believed in tithing-but if I was involved in ministry I'd privately explain to the pastor my beliefs about tithing and giving. Actually in the last church I was in, I told the pastor upfront about my views on tithing, and it wasn't a problem. I preached there all the time, and rarely mentioned tithing, and when I did it was in passing, not in a way that would create division or controversy. I actually enjoyed my time in that church, but ultimately it seemed to be adopting some doctrines that I was uncomfortable with (I though it was leaning a bit too charismatic for me) so I choose to leave.

When I left, my #1 priority was to find a church that truly centered around the Word of God and cultivating a relationship with Jesus Christ. The church I found was totally different than the Pentecostal churches I was in, especially music/worship. When I began attending I didn't know what was going to happen. I attended for nearly a year before I was asked to do anything in the ministry. When I was approached about preaching, I was honest with the elder that I didn't believe in the trinity. I began preaching there last summer, and since late April this year I've become the primary preacher in the church (some Bible churches believe the elders run the church, and so don't always have a 'pastor'-so I'm an elder, and also do most of the preaching). I didn't build the church, start the church, and I didn't end up there over the doctrine of tithing. If I gave any of those impressions please forgive me.

But, the church I am in now believed in free will giving long before I came, and if you clicked on the website I listed, you can see that it is a very nice building/facility. Not only that it is modern, and yet completely paid off and debt free. Tithing is not a necessity, not in the least.

I also work a secular job and thus I preach for free, thus I am in no need of tithes. I'm not against a preacher taking a reasonable salary, nor am I claiming I never will-but to this point I haven't seen the need. The only downside, is sometimes I wish I had more time to study.

Plus the church is small right now, as it is trying to recover from a split over Calvinistic doctrines and some other issues (that happened before I was preaching or an elder), so again, in the event something happens in that church that necessitates my moving on, I'm not saying I'd never attend a church that believes in tithing again. So I wouldn't suggest you leave one if youre happy there.

[Nitehawk013]

Well said Jason. I wouldn't leave over tithing alone or a couple standards. I don't think it a big enough disagreement to warrant uprooting and moving. I have been in my church for 19 years. I've been involved in work or ministry there for some 16 of those years.

Ultimately, I would leave over the overall direction of my church. It's not simply that eithing. It is the fact that every single service (I wish I was exaggerating) my Pastor makes sure to tell us we need to give more and pay our tithes. Even when it has NOTHING to do with his text or topic, he finds a wayo to drop it in there. And this in a church where it has been said multiple times that over 90% of the church are active regular givers. This on top of the fact that every week there is some new project he wants us to give to. 40 grand for this, a couple thousand for that. ON and on it goes all the time. A lot of us are sick of the constant give more money drumbeat, but it's like he is tone deaf to the people.

Now, if we were giving in order to fund a food pantry, or to provide clothes, or help with th esalvation army or local healthcare for the needy. If we were being asked to give in order to help shut ins, widows, seniors with no one else to care, etc...that would be no problem. At least that is BIBLICAL. But here it is all about building up our building and then renovating and next year...starting to build on to the building. We built a gymnasium. We built a youth chapel. His view is the "house of god should be the nicest building in town". The church building IS NOT the house of God, WE ARE the temple now! We have no outreach program. Rarely is outreach preached or promoted. We do very little at all for the community besides have a church...and yet somehow that is perfectly fine. Let's spend untold thousands on a building while people are starving around us. I can't find where that agrees with the message of Christ.

I'm ONeness to the core. I am a "3 stepper", but those 3 steps are only accessable to us b/c of the blood of the lamb. I believe in justification by faith the same way James and Paul did: show me your faith by your good works. If you don't do good works, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. If you are justified, then you'll do good works. Faith is more than mental ascent. I preach the initial evidence of tongues. I believe in the gifts of the spirit. I really do find myself agreeing with most of the Apostolic doctrines. Honestly, I find myself pretty conservative...except on this forum by comparison. LOL.

I want my kids to know church shouldn't be a constant barrage of give give give give just to see a stupid building built up. I don't want them to feel like they aren't good Christians because they choose to not toss every spare dollar they have into some offering at church. That they aren't lost and onthe way to hell for not tithing. But they will grow up and hear that nonsense every flippin week here and it drives me nuts.

I have considered for a while now starting a work in a small village/town about 10 minutes outside our town. There has never been an Apostolic church there. I don't like the "everyone come to this one church mentality". I think the kingdom is better served if people go OUT and have smaller, more intimate and connected (family like) churches. So i would love to get somethign started there as home bible study/prayer meetings and see where it goes. Somewhere we can preach the Apostolic doctrine without tithing and some of the clothesline stuff, but also stress being far more active in the community and giving to the poor and needy. Francis Chan has been kicking my tail with convictiopn over how much he and his church give away to the poor and such, not only here but in foreign countries.

I think we are missing the mark in a lot of ways, but you can't do much about it. I thought I could change the church from within by just working and trying to talk about these things and pray for change. It won't happen when the Pastor won't even give thought to it. So now I am looking for direction elsewhere. I love the church and the Pastor. I'm just not happy there. Not challenged there. Not getting educated there. Not inspired there anymore. I need more than what my Pastor offers, and I don't think he ever will. My wife would be perfectly happy staying there forever, but for me...if I stay I may lose my mind in time. So I need to either find direction elsewhere, or I need God to change my mind and give me some peace about this place.

[FlamingZword]

The temple of Solomon was lavishly decorated with silver and gold.

The temple that Herod built also was a magnificent temple. Of course we know that Herod was a monster, but he at least pretended to be religious, and in order to court favor with the priests, he put up the money to built the temple.
Of course he did some not nice things (Like killing his own sons) to stay in power and become filthy rich.
So we know that Herod was definitely not a good guy, Yet Jesus still called the temple in Jerusalem the house of prayer, Jesus taught inside the Temple.
None of the prophets ever complained about the money spent in the temple instead of giving it to the poor.
Some of the priests were rich from their work in the temple, and Jesus did reprove them for their avarice, but not for them spending money on the Temple.
Why should the house of God be a rundown death trap?
Why should the house of God look like it is inhabited by homeless bums?
Why should the people of God worship in a building without climate control?
Where is it in the scriptures that the church should not spend any money on building a church?
Why should not the house of God look pretty from the outside and the inside?

[Nitehawk013]

Where is a building called the house of God in the post-pentecost NT writings? Was not the temple and all of it's gold and grandeur a type of something yet to come? It was glorious and golden not for the sake of being glorious and golden, but to point towards something yet to come. When that thing was come...the shadow was no longer relevant.

Besides that, there is a difference on spending some money to make the building look good and spending untold thousands constantly to upgrade a perfectly good building.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Why should the house of God be a rundown death trap?
Why should the house of God look like it is inhabited by homeless bums?
Why should the people of God worship in a building without climate control?
Where is it in the scriptures that the church should not spend any money on building a church?
Why should not the house of God look pretty from the outside and the inside?

You manifest a common OP tendancy-to only view all things in the context of extremes.

No one has said the "House of God" should be a rundown shack, but I'd be there are move legitimate moves of God in buildings like that, than all the magnificent churches in the world combined. All NH seemed to be saying is, if the church is a decent and nice building, why make it a palace? The churc in Decatur is really nice, but it won't any top 10 lists. That doesn't mean we need to keep improving what is already more than adequete.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I mean, do statements and phrases like 'my church... when I had my church... when I get my next church...' come naturally to you?

I don't recall the apostles ever speaking that way, at all.

Here, let's let the rubber meet the road - the religion of the apostles is a belief set, a way of thinking, a world-view. It is also a way of life. It is also divinely Inspired, and is the only Divinely Inspired 'religion' there is. It is truly God's Way.

That religion they had, that ideology, that belief set, that way of living, consisted in large measure of a thought process, a way of looking at things. That religion they had caused them to say certain things, like in response to 'what shall we do' they said 'repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins'.

Unlike Baptists and evangelicals who would NEVER EVER tell someone THAT. No Baptist or evangelical would ever meet a professing 'believer' and ask them 'Ah, great! Praise the Lord! Now... have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?' Their religion would never cause them to think in such terms, their religion causes them to say 'Ask Jesus into your heart', or 'since you believed you already have the Holy Spirit!'

So then those Baptists and evangelicals have a different religion than the apostles. It is evidenced by the fact their religion causes them to say things the apostles never would have, because their religion causes them to think in terms the apostles would have not thought in. Two different religions, producing two different world-views or ideologies or thought-processes... manifested by two different ways of speaking.

So, when you say 'my church' and other similar things, as I asked, do such statements come naturally to you? Do they not reflect your thinking, your thought processes, your world-view? Do they not reflect your religion?

Do they reflect the religion of the apostles?

If we believe what the apostles believed, if we teach what they taught, if we live what they lived, if we had their religion, then we would speak the same things they did.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Just something to consider.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

The temple of Solomon was lavishly decorated with silver and gold.

The temple that Herod built also was a magnificent temple. Of course we know that Herod was a monster, but he at least pretended to be religious, and in order to court favor with the priests, he put up the money to built the temple.
Of course he did some not nice things (Like killing his own sons) to stay in power and become filthy rich.
So we know that Herod was definitely not a good guy, Yet Jesus still called the temple in Jerusalem the house of prayer, Jesus taught inside the Temple.
None of the prophets ever complained about the money spent in the temple instead of giving it to the poor.
Some of the priests were rich from their work in the temple, and Jesus did reprove them for their avarice, but not for them spending money on the Temple.

The Scripture says: Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. John 4:21

The Scripture says: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Acts 17:24

The Scripture says: We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. Hebrews 13:10-14

Why should the house of God be a rundown death trap?
Why should the house of God look like it is inhabited by homeless bums?
Why should the people of God worship in a building without climate control?
Where is it in the scriptures that the church should not spend any money on building a church?
Why should not the house of God look pretty from the outside and the inside?

The 'house of God' is not a building. No building made with hands is God's 'house'. The house of God is the church, and that is the PEOPLE OF GOD, as the Scripture says:

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22

And again,

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And further,

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Revelation 21:9-10, 22