The REAL problem with Islam

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You actually believe there is a nation on the planet that has laws outlining requirements for "honor killing?"

Honor killings are common in Brazil (catholic), India (Hindu), and MENA (Muslim). It does not appear that "saving face" or the motive of pride is limited to one culture or religion.

Honor killings are extremely rare, except in Muslim countries. Plus, the laws there tend to be very lenient with the predators. You have one mode of debate and that seems to be, demonize others and ignore the evil among Islam.

You are not being honest in your statements, the killings in Brazil are not "honor killings" rather "passion killings" by husbands and boyfriends. No, not limited to one culture, but of religions it is limited 90% plus to Islam.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Honor killings are extremely rare, except in Muslim countries. Plus, the laws there tend to be very lenient with the predators. You have one mode of debate and that seems to be, demonize others and ignore the evil among Islam.

You are not being honest in your statements, the killings in Brazil are not "honor killings" rather "passion killings" by husbands and boyfriends. No, not limited to one culture, but of religions it is limited 90% plus to Islam.

Rare? Wake up. Your views and factual information deviate as "honor killings" are not traditionally performed by Muslims but by Hindus because of the locked caste and arranged marriage systems. But hey! If they're poor and brown-skinned they're all the same right? As to Brazil - what you call "passion killings" LOL were sure called "honor killings" when they went to court - by none less than the defendent.

Brazil's Supreme Court has ruled that a man can no longer kill his wife and win acquittal on the ground of "legitimate defense of honor."
The ruling ends a 10-year legal battle. "It's a historic decision," said Jacqueline Pitanguy, a Brazilian women's rights leader.
Although never part of the legal code of Brazil, the "defense of honor" strategy has been used by lawyers to win acquittals in thousands of cases of men on trial for murdering their wives. According to a study in Sao Paulo State for the period 1980-81, 722 men claimed defense of their honor as justification for killing women accused of adultery.

In the Muslim community what are called "honor killings" are ALSO done by a ticked off husband or father who thinks his wife or daughter is running around with some man and wants to set them straight. Happens in Texas too but they don't call them "honor killings" they call it "domestic violence".

As to India, where the "honor killing" is part of ingrained society -

Honor killing is the premeditated murder of a relative (usually a young woman) who has allegedly impugned the honor of her family. It tends to predominate in societies where individual rights are circumscribed by communal solidarities, patriarchal authority structures, and intolerant religious and tribal beliefs. Under such conditions, control over marriage and reproduction is critical to the socioeconomic status of kinship groups and the regulation of female behavior is integral to perceptions of honor, known as maryada in many Indian languages and as ghairat in Urdu and Pashto.

In such an environment, a woman who refuses to enter into an arranged marriage, seeks a divorce, or fails to avoid suspicion of immoral behavior will be viewed by her family as having dishonored them so grievously that her male relatives will be ostracized and her siblings will have trouble finding suitable spouses. Killing her is the only way the family can restore its honor, regardless of whether she actually is or can be proven guilty of the alleged offense. In sharp contrast to other forms of domestic violence, honor killings are frequently performed out in the open, and the perpetrators rarely act alone. Unni Wikan, a social anthropologist and professor at the University of Oslo, observed that an honor killer typically commits the murder "as a commission from the extended family."

Indian society at large is no less misogynistic than that of Pakistan. Since boys are preferred and girls are seen as a burden, an estimated four to twelve million selective abortions of girls have occurred in India in the past three decades.[37] The 2011 Indian census found 914 girls for every 1,000 boys among children six or younger.[38] Dowry burnings, the practice of a man and his mother dousing his wife with cooking oil and burning her alive so that a new bride and dowry can be obtained, are as big a problem as honor killings in India.[39]

As the Indian media have fastidiously documented,[40] there has been a marked increase in the number of reported honor killings in recent years. In 2010, a government-funded study on the prevalence of honor crimes in India found that they are most common in regions dominated by khap panchayats and increasingly involve inter-caste, rather than intra-sub-caste marriages.[41] In these regions, local politicians turn a blind eye to the murders and resist efforts by the central government and parliament to deal with the problem while local police collude in honor killings[42] or help cover them up, often mischaracterizing the murders as suicides.[43] In 2011, theaters in Haryana refused to screen an Indian film on honor killings because of threats by khap panchayats.[44]

According to Prem Chowdhry of the Delhi School of Economics, honor killings were less frequent in the past "because elopements didn't happen … livelihood was so clearly tied to the land, and the land was so clearly enmeshed in these relationships."[45] Greater socioeconomic mobility has weakened these bonds. As khap panchayats struggle against modernization, preserving their traditional power means retaining control over reproduction, and they have resorted to violence to achieve this.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Rare? Wake up. Your views and factual information deviate as "honor killings" are not traditionally performed by Muslims but by Hindus because of the locked caste and arranged marriage systems. But hey! If they're poor and brown-skinned they're all the same right? As to Brazil - what you call "passion killings" LOL were sure called "honor killings" when they went to court - by none less than the defendent.

Brazil's Supreme Court has ruled that a man can no longer kill his wife and win acquittal on the ground of "legitimate defense of honor."
The ruling ends a 10-year legal battle. "It's a historic decision," said Jacqueline Pitanguy, a Brazilian women's rights leader.
Although never part of the legal code of Brazil, the "defense of honor" strategy has been used by lawyers to win acquittals in thousands of cases of men on trial for murdering their wives. According to a study in Sao Paulo State for the period 1980-81, 722 men claimed defense of their honor as justification for killing women accused of adultery.

In the Muslim community what are called "honor killings" are ALSO done by a ticked off husband or father who thinks his wife or daughter is running around with some man and wants to set them straight. Happens in Texas too but they don't call them "honor killings" they call it "domestic violence".

As to India, where the "honor killing" is part of ingrained society -

Honor killing is the premeditated murder of a relative (usually a young woman) who has allegedly impugned the honor of her family. It tends to predominate in societies where individual rights are circumscribed by communal solidarities, patriarchal authority structures, and intolerant religious and tribal beliefs. Under such conditions, control over marriage and reproduction is critical to the socioeconomic status of kinship groups and the regulation of female behavior is integral to perceptions of honor, known as maryada in many Indian languages and as ghairat in Urdu and Pashto.

In such an environment, a woman who refuses to enter into an arranged marriage, seeks a divorce, or fails to avoid suspicion of immoral behavior will be viewed by her family as having dishonored them so grievously that her male relatives will be ostracized and her siblings will have trouble finding suitable spouses. Killing her is the only way the family can restore its honor, regardless of whether she actually is or can be proven guilty of the alleged offense. In sharp contrast to other forms of domestic violence, honor killings are frequently performed out in the open, and the perpetrators rarely act alone. Unni Wikan, a social anthropologist and professor at the University of Oslo, observed that an honor killer typically commits the murder "as a commission from the extended family."

Indian society at large is no less misogynistic than that of Pakistan. Since boys are preferred and girls are seen as a burden, an estimated four to twelve million selective abortions of girls have occurred in India in the past three decades.[37] The 2011 Indian census found 914 girls for every 1,000 boys among children six or younger.[38] Dowry burnings, the practice of a man and his mother dousing his wife with cooking oil and burning her alive so that a new bride and dowry can be obtained, are as big a problem as honor killings in India.[39]

As the Indian media have fastidiously documented,[40] there has been a marked increase in the number of reported honor killings in recent years. In 2010, a government-funded study on the prevalence of honor crimes in India found that they are most common in regions dominated by khap panchayats and increasingly involve inter-caste, rather than intra-sub-caste marriages.[41] In these regions, local politicians turn a blind eye to the murders and resist efforts by the central government and parliament to deal with the problem while local police collude in honor killings[42] or help cover them up, often mischaracterizing the murders as suicides.[43] In 2011, theaters in Haryana refused to screen an Indian film on honor killings because of threats by khap panchayats.[44]

According to Prem Chowdhry of the Delhi School of Economics, honor killings were less frequent in the past "because elopements didn't happen … livelihood was so clearly tied to the land, and the land was so clearly enmeshed in these relationships."[45] Greater socioeconomic mobility has weakened these bonds. As khap panchayats struggle against modernization, preserving their traditional power means retaining control over reproduction, and they have resorted to violence to achieve this.

It is murder in all cases, no matter if it is religiously sanctioned in some cultures, which seems to be the case more often in Islam.

We are not talking about the culture at large, rather where religion sanctions or allows the abuse of women who don't toe the line.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by crakjak

It is murder in all cases, no matter if it is religiously sanctioned in some cultures, which seems to be the case more often in Islam.

We are not talking about the culture at large, rather where religion sanctions or allows the abuse of women who don't toe the line.

So with facts in front of you are you now stepping back from your "extremely rare except for Muslim" position? Stepping back from your "not being honest in your statements" position?

Islamic law on accusation of women for infidelity is very clear and is outlined in the Quran in Surah 24. There is a legal process that must be followed and if this process is not followed it is the accuser, not the accused, who faces penalty.

Does this passage in the Quran imply Sanction of "honor killings" to you?

Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evils), are cursed in the world and the hereafter and they shall have a grievous chastisement. On the day when their tongue and their hands and their feet shall bear witness against them as to what they did.”

Surah 24:23-24

Does this passage in the Quran imply sanction of "honor killings" to you?

And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving eighty lashes), and do not admit any evidence from them ever, and these it is that are the transgressors.”

Surah an-Nūr 24:4

Does this passage in the Quran imply sanction of "honor killings" to you?

And those who accuse their wives [of adultery] and have no witnesses except themselves - then the witness of one of them [shall be] four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the truthful.
And the fifth [oath will be] that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars.
But it will prevent punishment from her if she gives four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the liars.And the fifth [oath will be] that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he was of the truthful.

Surah 4:6-9

Summary: When it is the word of the husband against the wife, and he says she did and she says she didnt - he's out of luck according to ISLAMIC LAW. So does Islamic Law sanction "honor killings" or not?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

So with facts in front of you are you now stepping back from your "extremely rare except for Muslim" position? Stepping back from your "not being honest in your statements" position?

Islamic law on accusation of women for infidelity is very clear and is outlined in the Quran in Surah 24. There is a legal process that must be followed and if this process is not followed it is the accuser, not the accused, who faces penalty.

Does this passage in the Quran imply Sanction of "honor killings" to you?

Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evils), are cursed in the world and the hereafter and they shall have a grievous chastisement. On the day when their tongue and their hands and their feet shall bear witness against them as to what they did.”

Surah 24:23-24

Does this passage in the Quran imply sanction of "honor killings" to you?

And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving eighty lashes), and do not admit any evidence from them ever, and these it is that are the transgressors.”

Surah an-Nūr 24:4

Does this passage in the Quran imply sanction of "honor killings" to you?

And those who accuse their wives [of adultery] and have no witnesses except themselves - then the witness of one of them [shall be] four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the truthful.
And the fifth [oath will be] that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars.
But it will prevent punishment from her if she gives four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the liars.And the fifth [oath will be] that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he was of the truthful.

Surah 4:6-9

Summary: When it is the word of the husband against the wife, and he says she did and she says she didnt - he's out of luck according to ISLAMIC LAW. So does Islamic Law sanction "honor killings" or not?

Let's talk about actual practice, I sure "honor killings" are not the practice of honorable Muslims, but there is way too many that are apparently not honorable.

And what of the recent facts that have come out that 80% of the mosques in the US teach radical jihad?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Let's talk about actual practice, I sure "honor killings" are not the practice of honorable Muslims, but there is way too many that are apparently not honorable.

And what of the recent facts that have come out that 80% of the mosques in the US teach radical jihad?

You have been briefed on specific parts of Islamic law taken directly from the Quran and failed to answer the question. Does Islamic law sanction or teach "honor killings" or not? Does this practice originate from within Islamic law or from within cultures across the world?

There are way too many cases of child-diddling, till-robbing, clinic-bombing, doctor-murdering, and cross-burning within the christian ranks that are also not honorable. Do these actions define christianity?

80% of Mosques my foot. Where do you get this nonsense anyway?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You have been briefed on specific parts of Islamic law taken directly from the Quran and failed to answer the question. Does Islamic law sanction or teach "honor killings" or not? Does this practice originate from within Islamic law or from within cultures across the world?

There are way too many cases of child-diddling, till-robbing, clinic-bombing, doctor-murdering, and cross-burning within the christian ranks that are also not honorable. Do these actions define christianity?

80% of Mosques my foot. Where do you get this nonsense anyway?

According to Islam, if an Islamic nation that previously recognized sharia at least generally as its basis for law reneges and begins to officially oppose sharia and Islamic law, and refuses to enforce sharia in the area of certain capital offenses, what is the Muslim community to do?

Would jihad be acceptable, or even encouraged, on the part of the faithful to enforce sharia anyway?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

According to Islam, if an Islamic nation that previously recognized sharia at least generally as its basis for law reneges and begins to officially oppose sharia and Islamic law, and refuses to enforce sharia in the area of certain capital offenses, what is the Muslim community to do?

Would jihad be acceptable, or even encouraged, on the part of the faithful to enforce sharia anyway?

Muslim communities do fine all over the world Sharia law or not

Lynching (accompanied by cross-burning LOL just to demonstrate that it's all "for Jesus") is a christian thing not a Muslim thing

[soopy]

Originally Posted by Esaias

All this bantering back and forth about the problem(s) with Islam tend to miss the REAL problem - namely that it is NOT DIVINELY INSPIRED.

IF you believe the bible is the Word of God, then Islam is by definition a false religion. THAT is the real issue.

Just thought I'd mention that.

I think the most glaring problem with these statements is that one puts themselves in the position of judge when they make them; Scripture tells us that Ishmael was blessed of God, does it not? And so when, obviously despite personal knowledge of this foreign, monotheistic religion, as verified by Scripture, one seeks to cast stones, or imagine a 'problem' outside there scope, they first must cast away Christ.

We must remember, I think, that even the word will pass away, and the word is made moot (of no effect), and that such Scriptural evidence, so at odds with our current grasp of reality, if we truly believe that the word is inspired, must lead us into a different understanding, completely, of just what it is for, and what it does; divide, by exposing our hearts.

The word is living, and splits asunder in a way that exposes hearts, Esaias; and the Koran does the same thing-so the very 'proof' you hold up as evidence condemns you, who would not be condemned. You might seek a view of yourself here, from another vantage point; I suggest that ou may not like what you see, with all do respect.

[soopy]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Muslim communities do fine all over the world Sharia law or not...

Sharia Law it is now. (Ok, Ed, they aren't buying "Canadians" as enemies any more; who else we got? Murder with religious and tyrannical overtones {when we're done}-perfect-oh; from where? Well, never mind-we can 'doorstep' it. :cackle)

A Christian American could throw a dart at a map of Islam, and move to the corresponding place, and live immersed in sharia law the rest of there lives, and most likely (all things considered) never become aware of it. Especially if they took there tv with them.