Obviously, the culture of the scriptures is very paternalist, many times the men in scripture were abusive to women. This is no more God's perfect culture than was slavery in scripture, His perfect will.
BTW: The way that you talk down to women, seems to be perfectly in line with the paternalist culture of the scripture, but it does not make it right.
Just my observations, take them constructively or throw them out, as you see fit. God bless.
Now Brother, after I posted I read on, and to my amazement you lighten up on the ladies.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I have sat on the sidelines and read many of the posts on this thread, some while laughing and others with disdain. While I do not claim to have all knowledge concerning the Word of God by any means, this is just one area that I have done much study in and realize that most of what is debated on this topic is more rhetoric and male ego than biblical precedence.
We must not just be able to copy and paste scripture; we must rightly divide the Word. We often claim exclusive rights to base a doctrine or a teaching on just one scripture (or in this case two which are closely related yet different) yet we discredit anyone who builds a doctrine on one scripture that we don't agree with, it is this kind of rhetoric that causes us to look like a cult to the rest of the world. We must make sure that what we are applying has a solid biblical (Apostolic) precedence. The safety net then is to compare these one or two scriptures to the rest of scripture to determine what Paul is really speaking about. Then and only then will we be able to determine what a scholar of the Law (Paul) was trying to say, or if indeed he was trying to establish a new standard for the New Testament Church.
When you study out the topic in the Old Testament we find that men were used by God as Prophets. Strongs 5030 nabiy' naw-bee' from 'naba'' (5012); a prophet or (generally) inspired man:--prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.
Women were used by God as Prophetesses Strongs 5031 feminine of 'nabiy'' (5030); a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by association a prophet's wife:--prophetess.
To put it plainly they were simply a female prophet. And nearly every woman who is classified as a female prophet prophesied to men and women. There are only a few examples and many men use the scarcity of their mention to state that it is not Gods perfect plan, and that these woman only were appointed because there was no man who would step up. For the sake of space we can address that later. However, let me state that I do not believe every woman who preaches is called, anointed, sent, etc (neither is every man)
God extended this same precedent into the New Testament church through the Prophecy of Joel. Joel 2:28.......and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy...... Strongs 5012 naba' naw-baw' a primitive root; to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse):--prophesy(-ing), make self a prophet. Notice that God did not limit prophecy to men in fact he specifically made mention of "daughters/women."
First we can argue the point all day long that if Paul wrote something and it made it into the Bible it is God who spoke it. Not entirely so; because even the great Apostle admitted that some things he said were not by inspiration but rather by permission. (Just as I believe today that a pastor has the God given right to set precedence in his local church, but as the Apostle he must identify what is his precedence versus what is scriptural mandate.)
Having said that, let me split hairs with you a moment and remind you that Paul never said that the prohibition of a woman teaching or usurping authority over a man was a God given mandate. In fact he said "I" suffer not.... One could easily argue that this was not a church rule but rather a personal preference of Pauls and just as we teach our preferences to our ministry trainees Paul was addressing Timothy.
Brethren/sisters I think many of us may have overlooked a Biblical Principal while trying to feed the male ego JMHO.
Have any of you ever thought about the fact that a woman who preaches, teaches, prophesies, etc under the authority of her pastor has not execised any authority other than what has been granted to her by the "authority" that we are all to be subject to.......the Pastor. In 1 Ti 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach, on her own authority over a man" On her own authority would be where we get the idea of "forced" authority. In other words she is not submitted to anyone and no one has extended her the "right" to speak. However, when she is submitted to authority and that authority gives her the ok she is not speaking of her own accord but by the same spirit as her leader.
Remember it is like the hair issue (as he ducks to avoid the sledge hammers) and many others that we build a doctrine on from one scripture yet we warn others not to build a doctrine on one isolated scripture. (I know on women and silence some of you think there are at least 2) However, when you compare all of scripture with Paul's statements you must conclude that either he was trying to establish something new for the Church age, or we may not have a proper understanding of what he was addressing in the Corinthian church.
If you study church history you will find that in Corinth as in many Synagogues they had gender separated seating with (depending on which historical account you rely on) the men on the ground floor and the women in an upper balcony. According to many historians what apparently happened was that while the preacher/teacher was speaking the women would interrupt and ask questions of clarification and sometimes nearly open debate concerning the preaching. Thus Paul's instruction in 1Cor. 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (This is not speculation this is historical fact according to church historians)
You cannot have it both ways either a woman can prophecy=preach or she must be silent never uttering a sound while in the assembly of the righteous. JMHO
The passage in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 may have reference to a personal setting in the home and not in the assembly.
The passage in 1 Cor 14:34-35 may have just been a quote by Paul of something someone in the Corinthian assembly had written to him. He may have quoted it back to them like he did some other things in that epistle and then addressed it in verses 36-40.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Do you swagger to the pulpit to preach or act like a man while ministering? Do you claim to be a preacher and then try to see how masculine you can act? If so, I don't believe in your ministry either.
Is that how lesbians act? Again, I have to wonder why you call them masculine lesbians!
I can understand you commenting that they are acting masculine, but I have yet to see evidence that they were acting like lesbians.
Quote:
At least Paula White at Church Without Vows International acts like a lady. Outside of preaching damnable false doctine she is light years ahead of some Pentecostal women preachers I've seen.
As for what you call a 'sick fascination' with them? No. I do have a strong love for God's Word and a strong destesting of anything that doesn't align with that Word. Perhaps I could utilize the same twisted supposition with you and say, "Do you have some perverted desires for manly women? Is that why you are trying to take up for masculine lesbians?" Now that would be unfair, wouldn't it. But, using your weird logic it would be compatible with what you said to me.
I'd like you to show me any post of mine where I'm 'taking up for masculine lesbians'. If that's what you read in my posts, start over.
Quote:
Let me clarify one more time: I used the word lesbian because most of the lesbians I notice are the swaggering, manly acting kind. That is what some women preachers act like. It is that SOME that I'm talking about that gives legitimate women preachers a bad name.
And you know they are lesbians because?????????? Do they have a sign on their backs?
And do feminine acting male preachers give legitimate male preachers a bad name in your eyes as well?? Talk about painting with a broad brush!!
Quote:
As for pictures? This has nothing to do with pictures. I didn't post any pictures at all so you may have me confused with someone else.
I didn't say it was you that posted them. Sorry if that's what came across.
Quote:
I never said that all women preachers are the masculine lesbian type. I did say that the masculine lesbian type seem to give women preachers a bad name.
Again, I didn't say that's what you said. I just still cannot understand how you get 'lesbian' out of 'masculine acting female'.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I have sat on the sidelines and read many of the posts on this thread, some while laughing and others with disdain. While I do not claim to have all knowledge concerning the Word of God by any means, this is just one area that I have done much study in and realize that most of what is debated on this topic is more rhetoric and male ego than biblical precedence.
We must not just be able to copy and paste scripture; we must rightly divide the Word. We often claim exclusive rights to base a doctrine or a teaching on just one scripture (or in this case two which are closely related yet different) yet we discredit anyone who builds a doctrine on one scripture that we don't agree with, it is this kind of rhetoric that causes us to look like a cult to the rest of the world. We must make sure that what we are applying has a solid biblical (Apostolic) precedence. The safety net then is to compare these one or two scriptures to the rest of scripture to determine what Paul is really speaking about. Then and only then will we be able to determine what a scholar of the Law (Paul) was trying to say, or if indeed he was trying to establish a new standard for the New Testament Church.
When you study out the topic in the Old Testament we find that men were used by God as Prophets. Strongs 5030 nabiy' naw-bee' from 'naba'' (5012); a prophet or (generally) inspired man:--prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.
Women were used by God as Prophetesses Strongs 5031 feminine of 'nabiy'' (5030); a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by association a prophet's wife:--prophetess.
To put it plainly they were simply a female prophet. And nearly every woman who is classified as a female prophet prophesied to men and women. There are only a few examples and many men use the scarcity of their mention to state that it is not Gods perfect plan, and that these woman only were appointed because there was no man who would step up. For the sake of space we can address that later. However, let me state that I do not believe every woman who preaches is called, anointed, sent, etc (neither is every man)
God extended this same precedent into the New Testament church through the Prophecy of Joel. Joel 2:28.......and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy...... Strongs 5012 naba' naw-baw' a primitive root; to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse):--prophesy(-ing), make self a prophet. Notice that God did not limit prophecy to men in fact he specifically made mention of "daughters/women."
First we can argue the point all day long that if Paul wrote something and it made it into the Bible it is God who spoke it. Not entirely so; because even the great Apostle admitted that some things he said were not by inspiration but rather by permission. (Just as I believe today that a pastor has the God given right to set precedence in his local church, but as the Apostle he must identify what is his precedence versus what is scriptural mandate.)
Having said that, let me split hairs with you a moment and remind you that Paul never said that the prohibition of a woman teaching or usurping authority over a man was a God given mandate. In fact he said "I" suffer not.... One could easily argue that this was not a church rule but rather a personal preference of Pauls and just as we teach our preferences to our ministry trainees Paul was addressing Timothy.
Brethren/sisters I think many of us may have overlooked a Biblical Principal while trying to feed the male ego JMHO.
Have any of you ever thought about the fact that a woman who preaches, teaches, prophesies, etc under the authority of her pastor has not execised any authority other than what has been granted to her by the "authority" that we are all to be subject to.......the Pastor. In 1 Ti 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach, on her own authority over a man" On her own authority would be where we get the idea of "forced" authority. In other words she is not submitted to anyone and no one has extended her the "right" to speak. However, when she is submitted to authority and that authority gives her the ok she is not speaking of her own accord but by the same spirit as her leader.
Remember it is like the hair issue (as he ducks to avoid the sledge hammers) and many others that we build a doctrine on from one scripture yet we warn others not to build a doctrine on one isolated scripture. (I know on women and silence some of you think there are at least 2) However, when you compare all of scripture with Paul's statements you must conclude that either he was trying to establish something new for the Church age, or we may not have a proper understanding of what he was addressing in the Corinthian church.
If you study church history you will find that in Corinth as in many Synagogues they had gender separated seating with (depending on which historical account you rely on) the men on the ground floor and the women in an upper balcony. According to many historians what apparently happened was that while the preacher/teacher was speaking the women would interrupt and ask questions of clarification and sometimes nearly open debate concerning the preaching. Thus Paul's instruction in 1Cor. 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (This is not speculation this is historical fact according to church historians)
You cannot have it both ways either a woman can prophecy=preach or she must be silent never uttering a sound while in the assembly of the righteous. JMHO
Thank you sir...your last point in particular re Church history I ineptly made...thank you for detailing this.
Have any of you ever thought about the fact that a woman who preaches, teaches, prophesies, etc under the authority of her pastor has not execised any authority other than what has been granted to her by the "authority" that we are all to be subject to.......the Pastor. In 1 Ti 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach, on her own authority over a man"
Yes, I've thought of it and made the same point.
How can a woman usurp authority that has been extended to her by her own authority?
__________________ Smiles & Blessings.... ~Felicity Welsh~ (surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
HO, if you had read my posts, you would have seen that I have many times said that ALL SAINTS are ministers. What we (or at least most of us here) are talking about is whether a woman has a biblical right to be a leader (elder) in a church. Yes, I understand what you are trying to say with defining "preacher." But we are not talking about being a witness for Christ; we're talking about being a preacher that is recognized as a leader in the Church.
We have MANY scriptures where a woman ministers in the Church. I listed several of those already. What we do not have is scriptures allowing a woman to lead as an elder.
I hope this helps you better see what's going on here.
WRONG!!! See the thread title!!!
This is about women preachers, not women elders, leaders, pastors, or anything else. Women preachers. That's all.
Not all preachers are leaders in a church. I have known 14 yr old preachers, and they are hardly leaders in their church. Leadership isn't a requirement for being a preacher. That's a definition that MEN, not the Bible, have given to preachers.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
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