Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

[Michael The Disciple]

So this:

John 1:1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The literal Greek actually ends saying "God was the Word".

Is the same as this:

Phil 2:6-11

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The form of God, the logos was made man. The omnipresent spirit became the father of the man Christ Jesus. He loved him and cared for him all through his earthly stay. The man Jesus loved and obeyed his father above all else. Therefore God exalted Jesus above every other name and commands that every knee bow to him, for his own glory.

Dont forget as I proceed here. That omnipresent God we are talking about being the Father of Jesus.....that was still Jesus, or we should say YAH.

Jesus told Nicodemus he was still in Heaven at the same time they were talking on the Earth.

John 3:13

And no man has ascended up into Heaven but he who came down from Heaven EVEN THE SON OF MAN WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

This is where "modalism" really shines. In one mode of being Jesus was on earth. In another mode of being he was in the same place he had always been. Heaven!

So when Paul said every knee would bow to the man Jesus Christ it sounds like this.

Acts 2:36

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jesus is our only way of knowing God. He is our mediator. If we know him we know the Father.

1 Tim. 2:5

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Paul says here there is one God. If Jesus is God this refers to HIM in his deity. Paul says there is one mediator.....the man, Christ Jesus.

It's both him!

In one mode of being he is the one God. In another mode of being he is a man. Nonetheless a man in which God has chosen to fully reveal himself to the objects of his love.

Col. 1:18-19

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

[Michael The Disciple]

So if the Son did not pre exist in any way before Bethlehem except as a prophesied plan what is the difference between your version of Oneness doctrine and Unitarianism?

As for me I believe the Son pre existed as the Logos. The Logos was God. Else it would seem Oneness doctrine is denying the various verses that tell us the Son is the Creator. It would make it seem both the Trinitarians and the Arians are staying with scripture while we were denying it.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So if the Son did not pre exist in any way before Bethlehem except as a prophesied plan what is the difference between your version of Oneness doctrine and Unitarianism?

As for me I believe the Son pre existed as the Logos. The Logos was God. Else it would seem Oneness doctrine is denying the various verses that tell us the Son is the Creator. It would make it seem both the Trinitarians and the Arians are staying with scripture while we were denying it.

I'm saying as the Son, which is a point of relationship. Because where was He begotten or birthed before Betheleham? I mean we can point to Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." But when did it happen? What day was that?

You are saying I am bleeding over into unitarianism. While you are saying the same thing a trinitarian would say. Which a lot of trinitarians don't even believe. The pre existant son as the son was first brought forth by Origen. That was a late development also.

Because in Isaiah God says many times He created alone and by Himself, with no other beside Him. I mean to understand anything Paul or John are saying in the New Testament, has to be understood by what is brought forth in the Old Testament especially in Isaiah. Read from chapter 40-46. In light of those things it had to be forethought reason, plan, like It is in most passages in the New Testament.

What's the difference between the Logos and Rhema

[Michael The Disciple]

The same as the Logos that's how Jesus can say in John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

The glory the WORD had with God in the beginning:


Proverbs 8:22-31

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

I see this as the same thing as this.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:1-3

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The glory the WORD had with God in the beginning:


Proverbs 8:22-31

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

I see this as the same thing as this.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:1-3

Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking of Wisdom though, which is spoken forth of feminine qualities.

Matter of fact in the Sepatugint what word is used for wisdom in Proverbs 8:1? Just wondering?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking of Wisdom though, which is spoken forth of feminine qualities.

Matter of fact in the Sepatugint what word is used for wisdom in Proverbs 8:1? Just wondering?

What does 1 Corinthians 1:24 say?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What does 1 Corinthians 1:24 say?

Nails it!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Nails it!

What's cool is that verse identifies Christ not only as Wisdom, but also Power. Christ is not only God's Wisdom, but God's Power. And we know the "power of God" is the Holy Ghost per Luke 1:35, Luke 11:20, and Matthew 12:28.

So Christ is also THE HOLY GHOST.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking of Wisdom though, which is spoken forth of feminine qualities.

Matter of fact in the Sepatugint what word is used for wisdom in Proverbs 8:1? Just wondering?

Eloah is one of Gods titles as in Isaiah 44:8 They say in Hebrew it is feminine. Yet Eloah is identified as Christ {the rock} in the same verse. The second time the word God appears in the verse it should actually be "rock". The first time God means "Eloah".

Also Jesus identifies HIMSELF as the "wisdom".

Luke 11:49

49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

Matt 23:34

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Paul said Christ was the wisdom of God.

1 Cor. 1:24

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Good enough for me.

[Michael The Disciple]

If Ye Know These Things. Chapter 15

Elder Ross Drysdale Pentecostal Assemblies Of The World.

PRE-EXISTENCE AS "THE WORD OF GOD"
The idea of the Son existing "ideally" in the mind of God does explain a number of texts, especially those I have cited. However there are also a number of scriptures that speak of Christ in the Old Testament that cannot be explained on this basis. We read of God "who created all things by Jesus Christ" (Eph. 3:9); and God who "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... by whom also he made the worlds " (Heb. 1:2); and Christ Himself speaks of the glory He had with the Father "before the world was" (John 17:5). The answer to these texts lie in the scripturally revealed fact that the Son of God did Pre-exist, but not as the Son of God, for that would be the same as having a Pre-existed male human being. No, the Son Pre-existed as "the Word of God" ("the Logos" in Greek). He who was the Word of God in the Old Testament, became the Son of God in the New Testament. The Son of God, the male person born of Mary, did not pre-exist as a Son, per se. That would mean a pre-existent human being. But that does not negate the fact the He who was the Son of God in His earthly sojourn, had existed before in a different form!

THE MYSTERY OF THE LOGOS
John speaks of the Word (Logos in Greek) who was "in the beginning with God" and yet "was God." What was the Logos, or the Word of God?

As we have seen, the Son of God was God's visible body, form, or Temple in the New Testament times. God dwelt in Christ His Son and used Him as His own body. Whoever saw Christ, saw the Father, for God was in Christ. The Bible also teaches that God had a visible body or form in Old Testament times as well. It was not a human body of flesh, but it was a glorified body. And just as God dwelt in the human body of the Son of God after Bethlehem, so also did he dwell in the celestial body of the Word of God before Bethlehem. Whether in the Old Testament as the Word of God or in the New Testament as the Son of God, Christ has always been the visible Temple of the invisible Spirit. A Oneness "God in Christ" exists in both Testaments.

THE VOICE OF THE LORD
The glorious "Word" was the body God used when he "walked" with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. Naturally He would have to use some form or body to fellowship with them. They couldn't "walk" with an omnipresent Spirit!

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
The "Voice of the Lord" is the same as "the Word of God". It was God's vehicle of visual communication with His creation.
"THE BODY OF HEAVEN"
In the time of Moses, the Elders of Israel were given a view of the Logos.

Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
They could not have seen God in his Spirit nature, for a Spirit is necessarily invisible. Yet they saw God's feet, and described his visible form as the "body of heaven." God has only had two bodies. In the Old Testament times it was the Body of Heaven, but in the New Testament times it was the Body of Humiliation (Phil. 2:8), which the world crucified and pierced!
"THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD"
The Word of God was God's visible image in the Old Testament times. He was the "brightness of his glory and the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3). He was the "image of the invisible God and the firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15). When men saw Him they saw God:

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Did he see God as Spirit? Of course not. A Spirit doesn't have a "face". What he saw was the Word, who was God's visible image and as such did have a "face."
"THE FORM OF GOD"
God had a visible form in the Old Testament times. Jesus spoke of God's "shape" as well as His "voice" (John 5:37). Paul mentions the "form of God" in Philip. 2:6. A pagan king once saw the "form" that was "like" the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). This "form" was the "Word of God." This "form of God" was later changed into the "form of Man" at the Incarnation for the purpose of redemption (Phil. 2:2-8).

THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS GOD
Now we understand the meaning of John's prologue. The Word, or God's visible form, was "with God," just as our "bodies" are "with us" wherever we are. And yet the Word "was God." Because God dwelt in that "form," used it as His visible Temple, it can be said that the Word "was God." Wherever this Form appeared, It was God Himself appearing. The same situation obtains in the New Testament dispensation. Christ, the Son of God is also God's body or form. The Father is said to be "with" Christ (John 8:29), and also to be "in" Him (John 10:38), and Christ is thereby said to be God (John 20:28). Whoever saw Christ, saw God (John 14:8-10). God in Christ makes Christ God. God in the Word, made the Word God.

It was the "voice" of God, speaking out of his "shape" or visible image (John 5:37) that said: "Let there be light, and there was light." This is how the worlds were created by the Word of God (Heb. 11:3).

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
God's glorious visible Form, the Word or Logos, spoke and creation resulted.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And this Word was eventually changed into flesh and became the "Son of God". "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).
JOHN PATERSON COMMENTS
John Paterson was one of the most insightful writers on Oneness topics. His early work, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," was used as a Godhead textbook in the infancy of the Oneness Movement. He summarized the doctrine of the Logos in very clear and logical terminology. he writes:

"How did God show Himself to Abraham, eating and drinking before him? (Gen. 18:6-8,33); or How did Moses see his back parts? (Ex 33:23), or how did the elders of Israel see the God of Israel, and did eat and drink? (Ex. 24:10,11). In the answer to these questions lies the secret of the Mystery of God: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made' (John 1:1-3). In the beginning! That refers to Genesis 1:1, which reads, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'
"Now what is a 'word'? Is it not the expression of an inward abstract thought in a substantial concrete form. It means this in English, but as a matter of fact, the Greek word Logos means not only the expression of the thought, but also the inward thought itself. So we conclude that the Word was the visible expression of the invisible God; in other words, the invisible God embodied in visible form; and not only this, but the word was, essentially nothing less than the Eternal God Himself, as it is written 'The Word was God' " (John 1:1). (John Paterson, God in Christ Jesus, p. 9-10).