Is there going to be a rapture????

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by Sean

I would like to just make known, to start, a PRECEDENT that the Bible has consistently given us concerning the wrath of God on the world. When God was sending HIS judgement, (not mans' judgement), the "righteous" were spared from having to face the wrath of God.

Enoch was removed before the worldwide flood.

Noah was removed(in the ark) from the worldwide flood.

Lot was removed prior to the complete destruction by God of Sodom an Gomorrah.

Many times in the O.T., the Lord literally destroyed the armies that were encompassed around Israel(as long as the Lord had declared them RIGHTEOUS)

The 1st century Christians were given a sign to escape the Wrath of God on Jerusalem, through the Roman empire in 70ad.

Jesus promised that tribulation would come, but when the righteous were faced with decimation, God delivered His righteous ones.

The great Tribulation is not about mans wrath on mankind, but GODS' wrath on sinners. The book of Revelation shows us BILLIONS of souls slain BY GOD as the calamities are coming from God Himself. God WILL NOT destroy the righteous with the wicked...our father Abraham got it from the Lord himself here... Gen 18

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.



This is how the Lord operates, prior to HIS WRATH being poured out on mankind. The righteous WILL be removed first, then WRATH will come.

Notice this passage is in the same context as the 'catching away" in 1 Thes. 4....

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is my intro, rebuttals will follow...

I would just make this one point. When God poured wrath upon the Egyptians he left Israel in Egypt while he did it. It was the blood that caused the wrath of God to pass over them.

This text comes to mine.
John 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I am not a scholar by any means. Sean and MTD both seem so much more advanced in the scripture thank myself. It I would love to engage in the dialog here because it has been of great interest to me in the last coupe years. I do want to say..there are many great men of God in my life that are solidly pre-trib. Some of the greatest scholars and bible teachers I know are pre-trib...so I mean absolutely no disrespect when I disagree with the pre-trib view point.

One of my greatest fears of pre-trib teaching is a false sense of security. A feeling of exemption from tribulation and persecution when Jesus promised both.

I understand your false sense of security brother, but the alternative theology is that the Lord, your comforter, the love of your life, will miserably destroy you and your family, along with the sinners in the Great Tribulation in the winepress of His wrath.

Bro. you make the call here....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I would just make this one point. When God poured wrath upon the Egyptians he left Israel in Egypt while he did it. It was the blood that caused the wrath of God to pass over them.

This text comes to mine.
John 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The Great Tribulation is not to be compared with everyday life that we encounter bro. I have heard some try to say that the Lord will put a force field of some type around the saints during the tribulation, but there is NO passage to explain that idea.(that came from the sci-fi channel)

I forgot to post the Egyptian thing you just posted with my initial post. Thank you, that is also relevant to my point.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Post Tribulation Rapture Part1

Jesus said he would come for his elect after the great tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31

Some say this "elect" only refers to the Jews. However note the Apostle Paul writing to a GENTILE Church refers to them as the elect.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12

So in reality Jesus speaks to his elect whether they be Jew or Gentile.


Brother Michael, in reality, anyone at anytime that the Lord claims is the "elect"...as you stated, it is for Jew or Gentile. There will be a "harvest of souls in Matt.25 and that is the proper explanation of this particular gathering. It will be folks of ALL nations...this is a further explanation of the passage you presented in Matt. 24, referred to as "the gathering"... 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Apostle Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian Church.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul tells them when they will receive their rest from Jesus. Did he tell them it would be before the events that take place in the great tribulation? No rather he says it will be when Jesus comes with his mighty angels in great power. He says it would be when Jesus comes wrecking judgment and taking vengeance on the wicked of this world. It was at that time Paul taught Jesus would come.

Michael, verse 10 says no such thing as a catching away here. It is speaking of the beginning of the Millennial, and the saints right on his coattails here....This is "when he shall come" to the world and destroy the antichrist. Watch the saints glorify him before the marriage supper and during the destruction of the antichrists' system and followers.... Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Paul continues in his teaching to the Thessalonians. They were having questions about the timing of the Lords return, what we call today the "rapture".

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

He tells them expressly the things that withold the revelation of Jesus Christ. There would take place a great falling away first. Then the man of sin
(the beast) would be revealed. This man of sin would set himself up to be worshipped as god.


Absolutely bro. The church will actually be at the doors of the tribulation. We most likely will know who the antichrist is, but we will not be here during the last half of the Tribulation to experience the wrath of God with the sinners. Luke 21:28...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

The prophet Daniel gives some insight about this prophetic figure.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women...this is just a freebee bro. but Baxter says this passage means the desire of women is to have babies. The antichrist may cause forced birth control on the population(against the desire of women), for what its worth...


, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:36-37

This evil King must first appear on Earth before the rapture.

As I stated above, I believe he will also. But the sleeping church, like it is today, will be generally unaware of who he is. THEN THE RAPTURE HAPPENS(to a sleeping bride). Most Christian folks are already numb to the signs of the end times.

It is also interesting to note the similarity of thought between the way Paul starts the exhortation in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And the wording of Jesus about his coming in Matt. 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Each of them mentions the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to him. In my opinion this leaves no doubt they are both telling about the same event.

Brother, there is a separate coming or "gathering" for us and there is a separate gathering for the world...Check out Matt 25...

This is OUR gathering... 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


This is the "worlds" gathering,,,good and evil folks together...1 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

The Great Tribulation is not to be compared with everyday life that we encounter bro. I have heard some try to say that the Lord will put a force field of some type around the saints during the tribulation, but there is NO passage to explain that idea.(that came from the sci-fi channel)

I forgot to post the Egyptian thing you just posted with my initial post. Thank you, that is also relevant to my point.

So the so called "tribulation saints", those who missed the rapture or brand new converts who got a second chance salvation would be able to stand up before the beast and give their lives for Yeshua Christ.......but the faithful saints who had served and loved him for years would not be able to go through such horrible things!

Think again Bro. There are Catholic believers right now having their heads cut off because they will not deny Jesus Christ. And "Apostolic Pentecostal" believers are out there teaching that THEY COULD NOT go through such terrible times!

It is never everyday times when you and your family are going to have your heads cut off or be sawn in half as is taking place NOW.

And yet is God able to bring his saints into a place where he can feed them from the face of the devil?

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Rev 12:5-6

And:

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:13-14

So yes! God is able to keep his people in the day of his anger!


2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. Zepheniah 2:2-3

This is for a special group. The meek who have been doing his will.

[Michael The Disciple]

I would like to just make known, to start, a PRECEDENT that the Bible has consistently given us concerning the wrath of God on the world. When God was sending HIS judgement, (not mans' judgement), the "righteous" were spared from having to face the wrath of God.

Enoch was removed before the worldwide flood.

Noah was removed(in the ark) from the worldwide flood.

Lot was removed prior to the complete destruction by God of Sodom an Gomorrah.

Many times in the O.T., the Lord literally destroyed the armies that were encompassed around Israel(as long as the Lord had declared them RIGHTEOUS)

The 1st century Christians were given a sign to escape the Wrath of God on Jerusalem, through the Roman empire in 70ad.

Jesus promised that tribulation would come, but when the righteous were faced with decimation, God delivered His righteous ones.

But this proves my point. These did not have to be taken to Heaven to escape Gods wrath.

And the example of Lot and Noah prove no one else was saved once the great judgment hit. They were ALL DESTROYED. Once Noah was in the ark that was it. Once Lot left Sodom that was it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

BTW what is SFT?


Michael, it is Search for Truth...I am sure you heard of that, right?

Now that you mention it I do remember a guy that used it. I was not aware it had a section about pre trib, but I never paid much attention to it.

[Michael The Disciple]

This is OUR gathering... 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Yes this is our gathering. When it happens the door is shut. No millions of sinners will be getting saved once the door is shut. So this belongs to post tribs.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So the so called "tribulation saints", those who missed the rapture or brand new converts who got a second chance salvation would be able to stand up before the beast and give their lives for Yeshua Christ.......but the faithful saints who had served and loved him for years would not be able to go through such horrible things!
The tribulation saints we read about are specifically 144,000 divided into 12 tribes of Israel. They will be slaughtered and resurrected at the final phase of the 1st resurrection..

Think again Bro. There are Catholic believers right now having their heads cut off because they will not deny Jesus Christ. And "Apostolic Pentecostal" believers are out there teaching that THEY COULD NOT go through such terrible times!

It is never everyday times when you and your family are going to have your heads cut off or be sawn in half as is taking place NOW.

And yet is God able to bring his saints into a place where he can feed them from the face of the devil?

Yes, my brother...HEAVEN. There is no passage that gives the saints a hiding place from the Antichrist......as a matter of fact, to those that the Lord considers saints(the 144,000 etc), Antichrist will make WAR with them and OVERCOME them.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Rev 12:5-6

And:

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:13-14

So yes! God is able to keep his people in the day of his anger!



Brother Michael, this is speaking of Israel being kept from obliteration of the antichrist. Jesus came from the Jewish people ....13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. Zepheniah 2:2-3

This is speaking to the Jews, Michael, not Gentiles....

This is for a special group. The meek who have been doing his will.

Michael..this is spoken directly after the rapture and is considered part of the conversation by Paul....
1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Now Michael, look at this....this depicts the events of the Great Tribulation...Revelation 19:15

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Rev 16 also...

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore Ex. 9.10 upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 ¶ And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 ¶ And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. Ex. 7.17-21
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 ¶ And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 ¶ And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; Ex. 10.21 and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.



Brother Michael, Biblically speaking, the born again saints will not even see these things transpire.....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes this is our gathering. When it happens the door is shut. No millions of sinners will be getting saved once the door is shut. So this belongs to post tribs.

This is the rapture for sure, but it does not indicate pre, mid or post trib here...