Salvation Message

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by jfrog

There's not one three stepper who has a problem saying that after someone hears preaching and believes that they are then sealed with the Holy Ghost.

So to those who are already saved three steppers could tell them, "After you heard the message of Jesus and believed in Him you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." They can say this because to them receiving the Holy Ghost comes after belief. You on the other hand are saying this verse means they had the Holy Ghost after belief but received it at belief. There is a problem with your view. The verse talks about being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Being sealed with it surely is a reference to receiving the Holy Ghost. But people in your view don't receive the Holy Ghost after belief.

In fact, upon further reflection, the verse would have said "when you believed you were sealed with the Holy Ghost" if it meant you received the Holy Ghost at belief.

Right, but to 3 steppers they believe that the HG comes after belief, but accompanied with tongues, but Ephesians is not talking about tongues. That is what I meaning. People that believe like me believe that tongues are subsequent to salvation, but people that believe like believe that the HG comes with salvation not tongues. As such the one isn't saved as they are hearing the Message they are saved AFTER they hear and accepts it. The HG is not tongues so it is not "thing" that happens that gives you salvation other than your acceptance of His redemptive work. You are sealed by the spirit after you hear the Message because one can't accept it until they hear it all.

[berkeley]

oh come on. nobody knows wot the verse would have said...

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Berkley

poor guy. he thinks this is an apostolic forum.

[Jermyn Davidson]

There should not be a service that happens without giving an "altar call". Even if it is only for the sake of one person we can't see who may be eavesdropping on the service from outside the church walls.


The Word of God has a way of dealing with folks-- even ones who are already saved, while using the basics. I wouldn't deny God the opportunity to do something in someone's life by not having an altar call.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

There should not be a service that happens without giving an "altar call". Even if it is only for the sake of one person we can't see who may be eavesdropping on the service from outside the church walls.


The Word of God has a way of dealing with folks-- even ones who are already saved, while using the basics. I wouldn't deny God the opportunity to do something in someone's life by not having an altar call.

You do realize that the altar call wasn't even invented until the 1800s. I go to a church now that does not only have altar call but they actually stand against the traditional altar call.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

You do realize that the altar call wasn't even invented until the 1800s. I go to a church now that does not only have altar call but they actually stand against the traditional altar call.

The term "altar call" does carry a bit of historic baggage. Charles Finney's "Anxiety Bench" is often cited as the prototype of the modern "Altar Call." He placed a bench out in front of the pulpit and "invited" people to come and tremble in the presence of God.

The funny thing is, Finney wasn't really reaching for "sinners" necessarily but for "lukewarm" Christians. The pattern seemed to resonate though, and it morphed into dozens of different approaches. It was a time when there was a great deal of innovation being introduced to Protestant worship services.

I went through a spell when I was young where I loved altar calls because I got so much out of the emotional outpouring. That only lasted for a while, though. Soon I realized that nothing really changes after the emotions. There wasn't any "new power" conferred. I still wrestled with the typical angsts of a teen ager and overcame those things through the development of my own character and commitments. I also noticed that most of the people travailing beside me would sort of "come and go" in their walk. The "altar service" didn't seem to really have much of a lasting effect on people.

The "screaming and hollering" were an outlet for my pent up feelings, but it never really addressed the causes of those feelings and did nothing to instruct me on how to better deal with life's many problems. "All you need is a good prayin' through" was just a cop out for "I really don't have any answers for the questions you ask."

I had to find my "answers" elsewhere - outside the clamor of a Pentecostal service. This was the process that taught me what it really meant to "build an altar."

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The term "altar call" does carry a bit of historic baggage. Charles Finney's "Anxiety Bench" is often cited as the prototype of the modern "Altar Call." He placed a bench out in front of the pulpit and "invited" people to come and tremble in the presence of God.

The funny thing is, Finney wasn't really reaching for "sinners" necessarily but for "lukewarm" Christians. The pattern seemed to resonate though, and it morphed into dozens of different approaches. It was a time when there was a great deal of innovation being introduced to Protestant worship services.

I went through a spell when I was young where I loved altar calls because I got so much out of the emotional outpouring. That only lasted for a while, though. Soon I realized that nothing really changes after the emotions. There wasn't any "new power" conferred. I still wrestled with the typical angsts of a teen ager and overcame those things through the development of my own character and commitments. I also noticed that most of the people travailing beside me would sort of "come and go" in their walk. The "altar service" didn't seem to really have much of a lasting effect on people.

The "screaming and hollering" were an outlet for my pent up feelings, but it never really addressed the causes of those feelings and did nothing to instruct me on how to better deal with life's many problems. "All you need is a good prayin' through" was just a cop out for "I really don't have any answers for the questions you ask."

I had to find my "answers" elsewhere - outside the clamor of a Pentecostal service. This was the process that taught me what it really meant to "build an altar."

excellent. I sometimes wonder how much my developement was delayed because of the emotionalism. We never dealt with anything we just "prayed through" and somehow that was enough.