Why Sunday

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bestiality and things like that are well-known moral issues.

This is nonsensical. This is saying "everybody just automatically knows what is right and wrong without God saying so." So what do we need a Bible for? Why did God bother saying how we are to live?

The truth is man is an idiot who can't figure out right from wrong without divine revelation. Thus, man is to live by every word of God.

Your argument that "because it wasn't written that people were commanded xyz before Moses, therefore there was no moral obligation" fails.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Calvinists evidently miss what I think you do as well. Oldness of letter is walking after the flesh. Check out The Normal Christian life.

Not sure how you reconcile the work of the cross to be the remedy for sinful living in Paul's context of Romans 6 if we can just refuse to yield to sin before Experiencing the cross in salvation.

I wish you could see it. It's my absolute most treasured biblical truth. And as park said, so many don't "know" about it.

Natural inability is the sinner's greatest excuse, and the doctrine makes God a tyrant and insults His honour.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Natural inability is the sinner's greatest excuse, and the doctrine makes God a tyrant and insults His honour.

Natural inability, coupled with the elaborate plan of God in progressing towards the new covenant, shows an amazingly ingenious plan that only God could come up with to ensure man receives grace, and never considers that he could have taken knowledge of good and evil and gone without his help to become like Him.

I cannot see how the cross fits into the context in your mind with the way that Paul placed it in Romans 6. Paul's whole point in Romans chapter 6 is to show us that we had to become dead to sin through Christ in order for sin not to have dominion over us anymore, and you're telling us we merely had to stop yielding to it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This is nonsensical. This is saying "everybody just automatically knows what is right and wrong without God saying so." So what do we need a Bible for? Why did God bother saying how we are to live?

The truth is man is an idiot who can't figure out right from wrong without divine revelation. Thus, man is to live by every word of God.

Your argument that "because it wasn't written that people were commanded xyz before Moses, therefore there was no moral obligation" fails.

No because even heathen civilizations had much morality. But we argued this veggie as well when we spoke about how the heathen know by sheer nature many moral issues. To me, your idea is fitting scripture into your view rather than letting it give us its view.

There's no record in the word of God for what you're proposing to say that man was keeping the Sabbath day before Moses, and it is pure assumption to say that it was the case. I'm sorry, but I need a solid word of God and you're not providing me with one.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I already demonstrated what "moral law" is. The ten commandments are all moral laws.

If you want to redefine "moral law" that's okay, we can just drop the entire "moral law" terminology altogether since the Bible does not classify things as "moral law vs ___ law".

So then, the question is "Is anybody obligated to obey the ten commandments?" I think that has been answered solidly in the affirmative, numerous times in this thread, by none other than the apostle Paul, in his declarations that the new covenant produces obedience to the things commanded by the law.

Unless I'm mistaken, your argument boils down to the fact that it doesn't matter what God tells us to do, no matter how ritualistic or ceremonial it might be, it's moral just to obey with God tells a person to do. You are any sect admitting that The Seventh-Day Sabbath in and of itself is not a moral issue. The morality only comes into play because God told people to keep it, and it's quite moral to believe and Obey What God Says. So, repeating the same thing you've already said several times is not convincing me of anyting.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Unless I'm mistaken, your argument boils down to the fact that it doesn't matter what God tells us to do, no matter how ritualistic or ceremonial it might be, it's moral just to obey with God tells a person to do. You are any sect admitting that The Seventh-Day Sabbath in and of itself is not a moral issue. The morality only comes into play because God told people to keep it, and it's quite moral to believe and Obey What God Says. So, repeating the same thing you've already said several times is not convincing me of anyting.

You are mistaken.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No because even heathen civilizations had much morality. But we argued this veggie as well when we spoke about how the heathen know by sheer nature many moral issues. To me, your idea is fitting scripture into your view rather than letting it give us its view.

There's no record in the word of God for what you're proposing to say that man was keeping the Sabbath day before Moses, and it is pure assumption to say that it was the case. I'm sorry, but I need a solid word of God and you're not providing me with one.

Heathen nations understood idolatry was sinful?

Sorry, you're grasping at invisible straws here.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This is nonsensical. This is saying "everybody just automatically knows what is right and wrong without God saying so." So what do we need a Bible for? Why did God bother saying how we are to live?

The truth is man is an idiot who can't figure out right from wrong without divine revelation. Thus, man is to live by every word of God.

Your argument that "because it wasn't written that people were commanded xyz before Moses, therefore there was no moral obligation" fails.

Originally Posted by mfblume

No because even heathen civilizations had much morality. But we argued this veggie as well when we spoke about how the heathen know by sheer nature many moral issues. To me, your idea is fitting scripture into your view rather than letting it give us its view.

There's no record in the word of God for what you're proposing to say that man was keeping the Sabbath day before Moses, and it is pure assumption to say that it was the case. I'm sorry, but I need a solid word of God and you're not providing me with one.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Heathen nations understood idolatry was sinful?

Sorry, you're grasping at invisible straws here.

Esaisas,
You bring up an interesting point that humans do not automatically know right from wrong.

How would that fit with Rom 2?

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Esaisas,
You bring up an interesting point that humans do not automatically know right from wrong.

How would that fit with Rom 2?

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The gentiles which show the work of the law in their heart? As in "I will make a new covenant ... I will write my laws in their hheart..."?

Those gentiles in Romans 2 are Christians, they demonstrate by their living in obedience to God that He had written His law in their hearts, which proves they are Christians, not heathens.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The gentiles which show the work of the law in their heart? As in "I will make a new covenant ... I will write my laws in their hheart..."?

Those gentiles in Romans 2 are Christians, they demonstrate by their living in obedience to God that He had written His law in their hearts, which proves they are Christians, not heathens.