S it's true, in your view, that all men will know Christians when they see them because they love each other?
Yes, I know who the audience was. Believers. So? Is what Jesus told them actually true or not?
I say no. You have actually said, in effect, no, also. Now weasel out of it.
See, when you say things like "weasel out of it", I'm disinclined to even have a discussion with you. You're implying that I'm being disingenuous because I don't want to admit that something in the Bible is false and let this go to Timmy for the win.
Yes, I believe what Jesus said was true. He said that we are to love one another, and by that act, people will know that we are Christians. Is that the ONLY thing that matters, and did Jesus say it was the ONLY thing that matters? No, and no. He also said elsewhere that if you deny that "I am He" you will die in your sins. So obviously there's more to Christianity than simply loving other people. You also have to have faith in God.
This thread is about fakes, and you can fake love, so obviously there are people who can fake Christianity because they can fake loving others and even loving God. Hence the problem of the tares and wheat, because some things only God can sort out. We're limited.
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
See, when you say things like "weasel out of it", I'm disinclined to even have a discussion with you. You're implying that I'm being disingenuous because I don't want to admit that something in the Bible is false and let this go to Timmy for the win.
Yes, I believe what Jesus said was true. He said that we are to love one another, and by that act, people will know that we are Christians. Is that the ONLY thing that matters, and did Jesus say it was the ONLY thing that matters? No, and no. He also said elsewhere that if you deny that "I am He" you will die in your sins. So obviously there's more to Christianity than simply loving other people. You also have to have faith in God.
This thread is about fakes, and you can fake love, so obviously there are people who can fake Christianity because they can fake loving others and even loving God. Hence the problem of the tares and wheat, because some things only God can sort out. We're limited.
"Nor are those statements foolproof . . . " Agreed. So I guess what we don't agree on is what those statements mean. I think "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" means "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Not sure anymore what you think it means.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
"Nor are those statements foolproof . . . " Agreed. So I guess what we don't agree on is what those statements mean. I think "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" means "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Not sure anymore what you think it means.
You are stretching the statement beyond itself and that's where we are disagreeing. You want to use that statement as a litmus test for the accuracy of scripture. If you can prove that the statement is false, then that's one more step toward proving that scripture as a whole is false, or at least, unreliable. Right?
I believe that Jesus meant, "By this shall all men know that my disciples are mine: if they love one another." He did NOT say, "By this shall all men know that any random person is my follower: if he loves others." He was speaking to people who were already His followers, therefore the statement wasn't extended to everyone; it was to a specific group.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
You are stretching the statement beyond itself and that's where we are disagreeing. You want to use that statement as a litmus test for the accuracy of scripture. If you can prove that the statement is false, then that's one more step toward proving that scripture as a whole is false, or at least, unreliable. Right?
I believe that Jesus meant, "By this shall all men know that my disciples are mine: if they love one another." He did NOT say, "By this shall all men know that any random person is my follower: if he loves others." He was speaking to people who were already His followers, therefore the statement wasn't extended to everyone; it was to a specific group.
OK.
Is the love that unbelievers have real love? Or is it fake? Can unbelievers have agape love?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Is the love that unbelievers have real love? Or is it fake? Can unbelievers have agape love?
I don't know. Can believers have fake love?
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
That's actually an interesting question. And can anyone have fake love? What would that mean? I suppose someone could act as if they love someone, being nice to them, doing things for them, helping them, giving to them, etc. But, well, isn't that actually what love is? It's action, not just feeling. Right?
But wait, you don't know if unbelievers can have real love? Seriously?!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
That's actually an interesting question. And can anyone have fake love? What would that mean? I suppose someone could act as if they love someone, being nice to them, doing things for them, helping them, giving to them, etc. But, well, isn't that actually what love is? It's action, not just feeling. Right?
Sure, if someone is doing their best to show love even though they don't have a matching emotion, I wouldn't call that fake at all. I don't believe that emotions or feelings are required in order to make something real; in fact, I believe emotions are often irrational and misleading, and therefore unreliable.
Quote:
But wait, you don't know if unbelievers can have real love? Seriously?!
I don't know if unbelievers can have agape love. Other types of love are still real--and I suppose they can also be fake.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Last edited by MissBrattified; 05-06-2014 at 02:49 PM.
I don't know if unbelievers can have agape love. Other types of love are still real--and I suppose they can also be fake.
Doh! You're too smart for me. You were supposed to say No! Then I'd spring some scriptures on you that talk about unbelievers having agape love. Amazing how many Christians make that claim, that only Christians can have agape love.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Doh! You're too smart for me. You were supposed to say No! Then I'd spring some scriptures on you that talk about unbelievers having agape love. Amazing how many Christians make that claim, that only Christians can have agape love.
You're welcome to spring the scriptures on me, anyway. I don't know what they are right offhand and I would like to read them.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road