I visited another church this past weekend

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

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I don't know you well, but do you have a struggle with pride?

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Therefore, I will not automatically answer "no" to this question. I do not think I have a pride problem. But I'll pray about it. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more. Pride can take on subtle forms.

Your potential "new" Pastor's view on tithing is still different from yours and fairly similar to your current Pastor's view. So joining this church for that reasoning is not sensible.

He did say that he rejects the idea of using "Malachi's curse" as a motivator to get people to tithe. He related a story to me of how back in 2005 their home and possessions were completely wiped out by a hurricane. At the time, they were attending the same church I am now. They literally had the clothes on their back and nothing more. They struggled for months to get back on their feet, living with church members. It was during this trial that someone said from the pulpit, "If bad things are happening to you, it's because you aren't faithful in your tithing!!" He did not say who made that comment, but the comment did devistate he and his wife. I'd like to think that this experience does cause him to hold a differing view from that of my pastor.

You don't really know if your current Pastor was really aiming at you, neither do you know his intents because you refuse to speak with him about a hurt that may be real or might be imaginary. Why do you refuse to become transparent with him over your hurts?

Perhaps he was not even thinking of me at all. Either way, it was wrong for whoever he had in mind. But he did CLEARLY say that IN EVERY CASE he can tell why certain people are struggling by simply looking at their giving record. That's a big deal. It puts me in a position where I'd have to teach a new convert something different than what my pastor teaches on this matter. People are not dumb. They pick up on things and ask questions. I simply would not be able to affirm such a teaching to a convert who asked me about it.

The reason I have so far chosen not to confront him over this is I'm not certain it is worth the hastle. Even if with great respect I say, "thou art the man", I will be finished. He may not black list me or even discuss it with anyone, but the strain will be there and I will be consigned to staring at the back of people's heads.

Last night I made an interesting observation. I used to preach regularly at my church. It has been 11 months since he has asked me to preach. Granted, I was in Mexico for two of those months, and I was only able to go to church for one service a week for 5 of those months while I was working 2 jobs. But that still leaves 4 months. And he is very outspoken about missing church for work. He says that if your job keeps you out of church, you are not working where God wants you to. So it would seem that a subtle message is being sent my way.

Unless there are other things going that I have either simply missed or you haven't posted about, I don't see a strong reason for you to move in the direction you are moving.

And so far, I'm not convinced yet that I should move to the other church. Ironically enough, the one who could possibly give some insight into the goings on at the other church would be my pastor himself!!

Again, thanks for your concern. I do not take your words lightly.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Therefore, I will not automatically answer "no" to this question. I do not think I have a pride problem. But I'll pray about it. (1) Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more. Pride can take on subtle forms.




He did say that he rejects the idea of using "Malachi's curse" as a motivator to get people to tithe. He related a story to me of how back in 2005 their home and possessions were completely wiped out by a hurricane. At the time, they were attending the same church I am now. They literally had the clothes on their back and nothing more. They struggled for months to get back on their feet, living with church members. It was during this trial that someone said from the pulpit, "If bad things are happening to you, it's because you aren't faithful in your tithing!!" He did not say who made that comment, but the comment did devistate he and his wife. (2) I'd like to think that this experience does cause him to hold a differing view from that of my pastor.




(3) Perhaps he was not even thinking of me at all. Either way, it was wrong for whoever he had in mind. But he did CLEARLY say that IN EVERY CASE he can tell why certain people are struggling by simply looking at their giving record. That's a big deal. (4) It puts me in a position where I'd have to teach a new convert something different than what my pastor teaches on this matter. People are not dumb. They pick up on things and ask questions. I simply would not be able to affirm such a teaching to a convert who asked me about it.

The reason I have so far chosen not to confront him over this is I'm not certain it is worth the hastle. Even if with great respect I say, "thou art the man", I will be finished. (5) He may not black list me or even discuss it with anyone, but the strain will be there and I will be consigned to staring at the back of people's heads.

Last night I made an interesting observation. I used to preach regularly at my church. It has been 11 months since he has asked me to preach. Granted, I was in Mexico for two of those months, and I was only able to go to church for one service a week for 5 of those months while I was working 2 jobs. But that still leaves 4 months. And he is very outspoken about missing church for work. (6) He says that if your job keeps you out of church, you are not working where God wants you to. So it would seem that a subtle message is being sent my way.





And so far, I'm not convinced yet that I should move to the other church. Ironically enough, the one who could possibly give some insight into the goings on at the other church would be my pastor himself!!

Again, thanks for your concern. I do not take your words lightly.

(1) Any elaborating I could do would be close to me simply guessing and you don't need people guessing. While you are waiting, ask God about it.

(2) I thought you said that he didn't hold a different view from your current Pastor concerning tithing, just doesn't use Malachi to justify his view. Whether I take Hwy 90 west or I-10 west, I'll still end up in Pensacola, FL. Be clear as you pray and know that the two Pastors in question believe the same way about tithing. You KNOW this because you said so, plus if you've been with this organization for quite sometime, then you know the general view that members and leaders in this organization usually take concerning tithing.

(3) This statement really, really bothers you and it is all the more reason for you to speak with your Pastor about it. That's just the best thing to do. When you speak with him, you need to be as transparent as you can about the hurt and doubt his words caused you and your wife. Maybe you can bring up the fact that other Pastors that you know of make it a point to NOT KNOW the tithing records of their individual saints. Pastor Michael Williams is one who doesn't look at the tithing records of his members and I am SURE he's not the only one who sees the Pastoral wisdom in this. Or maybe after you show him your scars, your Pastor will apologize and maybe even retool his presentation of what he and your potential new Pastor both believe. Speaking directly with this man of God about your offense will help you in more than 1 way and it is a diabolical plot of satan to make you think that speaking with your Pastor about his words that hurt you is not a good or effective idea. He is not your enemy. Make an appointment to see him in private and discuss your feelings with him in private.

(4) I definitely understand your point here. Still, I ask how long have you been a member of this church? How long have you been active in this church? In times past, what did you tell the new converts before-- you know, the new converts you mentored before this same Pastor trusted your calling and walk with God enough to support your decision to go to Mexico? Do you understand what I'm getting at? Unless you simply don't believe in tithing at all, whatever view you do have about tithing is probably not enough to disrupt the unity of this body of believers you have been a part of for some time now. If it is, all of a sudden, a thorny issue for you and you KNOW you were able to somehow rectify everything before, try to figure out what changed. The change may lie in your perception which has been rocked lately because of the storms you have been through relatively recently-- all the more reason for you to stand still. The church teaches tithing, you are usually a tither, the Lord knows your heart and you can elaborate on the confidence we have with God who knows the whole story when your new converts find themselves in a dilemma concerning tithing.

(5) What if it is God's Will for you to go through this? When you do have this conversation with him, you should bring up the strain that you think will develop. You should bring up how he hasn't used you to preach like in times past. It will be a difficult conversation, but nothing bad will come from it. If you find out that the differences are irreconcilable and that he has purposefully yet unofficially, "sat you down" because of your unfaithfulness in tithing, then the both of you will have established the facts concerning this situation. After the conversation, you will need to pray and make sure that your conviction about tithing is truly Biblical. Even if you are right and he is wrong, is this an area where you simply cannot agree to disagree? If you cannot simply agree to disagree and follow peace and unity, then joining this other church will not be the right decision either. Fellowship within an organization requires the humility to accept that everyone will not see everything the same way and the realization that you and the organization would do better with your membership and active participation than without your membership and active participation. The organization you are a part of preaches tithing as a Biblical command-- so does much of Evangelical Christianity.


(6) Cautiously, I would agree to the extent that if your job is limiting your meaningful Christian fellowship to only once a month, then there is a strong chance that you have placed yourself outside of the Will of God in this particular area. Meaningful Christian Fellowship doesn't have to be a church service, especially for "Joe the member". But you aren't "Joe the member" and you haven't been "Joe the member" for quite sometime now. You're a leader in this congregation, which means that your Pastor at one point had a considerable amount of trust in you, your stable lifestyle, and your commitment to the Gospel and your commitment to that local body-- leadership and parishioners. Honestly, showing up to church once a month would be a violation of that trust, especially if you have not spoken with your Pastor about the drastic but temporary change.

I think your current Pastor should have spoken with you about all this a long time ago. But if he's anything like my Dad, he's been holding out hope that you would correct yourself and that you would again be the type of follower he found you to be when he decided to allow you to be a leader in the congregation that he pastors.

Whether you see the need to correct yourself or not, do yourself the favor and make an appointment with your Pastor right away. Stop letting this fester. Get the facts, get clarity and stay on your knees through this process so that whatever decision you make in the future, you will have the confidence that you were following the Voice of our GOD and Savior.

satan loves it when you second guess the past, so don't allow him that ability any further.

Ask a few others (wife, couple close, close friends) to pray for God to give you wisdom and a heart to hear Him. I wouldn't even go into the details if they have to ask, but you need to be covered in prayer because you appear to be a man with a call of God on your life and satan would love to make sure that you never fulfill God's Will in your life by whatever tricks he can pull.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

(1) Any elaborating I could do would be close to me simply guessing and you don't need people guessing. While you are waiting, ask God about it.

(2) I thought you said that he didn't hold a different view from your current Pastor concerning tithing, just doesn't use Malachi to justify his view. Whether I take Hwy 90 west or I-10 west, I'll still end up in Pensacola, FL. Be clear as you pray and know that the two Pastors in question believe the same way about tithing. You KNOW this because you said so, plus if you've been with this organization for quite sometime, then you know the general view that members and leaders in this organization usually take concerning tithing.

(3) This statement really, really bothers you and it is all the more reason for you to speak with your Pastor about it. That's just the best thing to do. When you speak with him, you need to be as transparent as you can about the hurt and doubt his words caused you and your wife. Maybe you can bring up the fact that other Pastors that you know of make it a point to NOT KNOW the tithing records of their individual saints. Pastor Michael Williams is one who doesn't look at the tithing records of his members and I am SURE he's not the only one who sees the Pastoral wisdom in this. Or maybe after you show him your scars, your Pastor will apologize and maybe even retool his presentation of what he and your potential new Pastor both believe. Speaking directly with this man of God about your offense will help you in more than 1 way and it is a diabolical plot of satan to make you think that speaking with your Pastor about his words that hurt you is not a good or effective idea. He is not your enemy. Make an appointment to see him in private and discuss your feelings with him in private.

(4) I definitely understand your point here. Still, I ask how long have you been a member of this church? How long have you been active in this church? In times past, what did you tell the new converts before-- you know, the new converts you mentored before this same Pastor trusted your calling and walk with God enough to support your decision to go to Mexico? Do you understand what I'm getting at? Unless you simply don't believe in tithing at all, whatever view you do have about tithing is probably not enough to disrupt the unity of this body of believers you have been a part of for some time now. If it is, all of a sudden, a thorny issue for you and you KNOW you were able to somehow rectify everything before, try to figure out what changed. The change may lie in your perception which has been rocked lately because of the storms you have been through relatively recently-- all the more reason for you to stand still. The church teaches tithing, you are usually a tither, the Lord knows your heart and you can elaborate on the confidence we have with God who knows the whole story when your new converts find themselves in a dilemma concerning tithing.

(5) What if it is God's Will for you to go through this? When you do have this conversation with him, you should bring up the strain that you think will develop. You should bring up how he hasn't used you to preach like in times past. It will be a difficult conversation, but nothing bad will come from it. If you find out that the differences are irreconcilable and that he has purposefully yet unofficially, "sat you down" because of your unfaithfulness in tithing, then the both of you will have established the facts concerning this situation. After the conversation, you will need to pray and make sure that your conviction about tithing is truly Biblical. Even if you are right and he is wrong, is this an area where you simply cannot agree to disagree? If you cannot simply agree to disagree and follow peace and unity, then joining this other church will not be the right decision either. Fellowship within an organization requires the humility to accept that everyone will not see everything the same way and the realization that you and the organization would do better with your membership and active participation than without your membership and active participation. The organization you are a part of preaches tithing as a Biblical command-- so does much of Evangelical Christianity.


(6) Cautiously, I would agree to the extent that if your job is limiting your meaningful Christian fellowship to only once a month, then there is a strong chance that you have placed yourself outside of the Will of God in this particular area. Meaningful Christian Fellowship doesn't have to be a church service, especially for "Joe the member". But you aren't "Joe the member" and you haven't been "Joe the member" for quite sometime now. You're a leader in this congregation, which means that your Pastor at one point had a considerable amount of trust in you, your stable lifestyle, and your commitment to the Gospel and your commitment to that local body-- leadership and parishioners. Honestly, showing up to church once a month would be a violation of that trust, especially if you have not spoken with your Pastor about the drastic but temporary change.

I think your current Pastor should have spoken with you about all this a long time ago. But if he's anything like my Dad, he's been holding out hope that you would correct yourself and that you would again be the type of follower he found you to be when he decided to allow you to be a leader in the congregation that he pastors.

Whether you see the need to correct yourself or not, do yourself the favor and make an appointment with your Pastor right away. Stop letting this fester. Get the facts, get clarity and stay on your knees through this process so that whatever decision you make in the future, you will have the confidence that you were following the Voice of our GOD and Savior.

satan loves it when you second guess the past, so don't allow him that ability any further.

Ask a few others (wife, couple close, close friends) to pray for God to give you wisdom and a heart to hear Him. I wouldn't even go into the details if they have to ask, but you need to be covered in prayer because you appear to be a man with a call of God on your life and satan would love to make sure that you never fulfill God's Will in your life by whatever tricks he can pull.

I just want to clarify one remark. I have been faithful in "tithing". My financial storm might indicate to him that I have not, but I have.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I just want to clarify one remark. I have been faithful in "tithing". My financial storm might indicate to him that I have not, but I have.

Please clear the air between you and your Pastor in private. Leave NOTHING PERTINENT unaddressed.