Zionism And American Politics.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Funny. Let me post you a link that I ran across, just now. And I wasn't even doing "research" just came across it while catching up on the days news.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd7_1326994400

Well, for decades the media has used the term Jews/Zionists synonymously when referring to semites. This is conditioning to the people that when they hear the word "Zionist", they automatically think "Jew".

This website you linked refers to the Talmud. The Talmud is not the same as the Torah, which was given to Moses by God.


The Talmud is a "complementary" book of the Torah, one source says. But in Parts I & II you can clearly see that the pharisaical rules hate the Christian and added it to the law of their books.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

Remember in the OT, the Kings of the tribes frequently failed the Lord and went whoring after other baal, molech and other gods. Makes me wonder how many of these put their two cents in about the oral tradition. But since a good bit of this is about hating christians, much of this must have been written after Christ died, buried and resurrected in an effort to try to stamp out all reference to Christ. The Talmud clearly is not God-given scripture.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Now, let's get down to your defintion of "Zionist". d
I think that is what is comes down to.
So what is your definition?

I do not believe SH's definition was right and I do go with the wikipedia definition.
So what is yours?

I told ya. I stand with the Jews. This is what they say:


What is Zionism?


Zionism is a movement founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896 whose goal is the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, or Zion, the Jewish synonym for Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

The name of "Zionism" comes from the hill Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was situated.

Supporters of this movement are called "Zionists".

Today there is much confusion among Jews over the meaning of the term Zionism. It means different things to different people.

The reason for this is that historically, Zionism has been a movement dominated by secularist Jews. Herzl and most of his colleagues were assimilated Jews, who did not believe in or practice the Torah. Some Zionists were vehemently anti-religious, and saw the Torah and mitzvos as outdated rituals with no place in their modern state.

Yet the essence of the Zionist idea - that Jews should return to the Holy Land and establish a government - is not inherently secular, and in fact the Zionist movement had some religious members from the very beginning.

Some Jews today use Zionism as a synonym for Israeli secularism, and thus support the State of Israel while claiming to be anti-Zionist. These people's only complaint about the State of Israel is that it is not religious enough. They hope for the day when the state will be dominated by the religious parties.

But this is not the meaning of the term Zionism as used on this site. When we talk about Zionism here, we are refering to the concept that Jews should rise up, emancipate themselves from exile without waiting for the messiah, and establish a Jewish government in the Holy Land. Using Jewish texts, we demonstrate that this concept is against the Torah and has been opposed by rabbis in all generations.

There have been hundreds of rabbis over the past century who spoke out against the Zionist movement. But because of the ambiguity of the term, it is not always possible to prove that a given rabbi meant to oppose the concept of Zionism, rather than just secularism. For this reason, religious Zionists often make the claim that much rabbinic opposition to Zionism was only because it was a secular movement. On the "Rabbinic Quotations" section of this site, we have avoided this confusion by carefully selecting those quotations that are clearly against the concept of Zionism itself. As the reader will see, these quotations alone are enough proof that almost all of the greatest sages and leaders of the Jewish people opposed the establishment of a Jewish state.

In addition, the zionist movement is more of a political, rather than religious system.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Believe me almost the entire Muslim world uses the words "Zionist" and "Jew" synonymously.
That's their definition.
And this entire topic is usually fed by those who believe that there is either a secret Jewish/Zionist conspiracy to take over the world or the Jewish/Zionist conspiracy has taken over the world.
Do you subscribe to either of those beliefs?

You can speak for the entire Muslim world? You got more power than our government does then. Perhaps the media reports that the muslims use the words Zionist and Jews synonymously is a result of conditioning like here in the western nations.

Not everybody who studies the zionist movement believes that there is an actual conspiracy taking place. I would have to have more evidence to form an educated opinion about the matter. I do know that as long as people do not separate the political system (zionism) from the religious system (Torah), then they will never be able to understand what the Jewish people are trying to convey when they put their writings online.

BTW, the Jewish authors have put a new and current website up:

http://www.truetorahjews.org/

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Well, for decades the media has used the term Jews/Zionists synonymously when referring to semites. This is conditioning to the people that when they hear the word "Zionist", they automatically think "Jew".

This website you linked refers to the Talmud. The Talmud is not the same as the Torah, which was given to Moses by God.


The Talmud is a "complementary" book of the Torah, one source says. But in Parts I & II you can clearly see that the pharisaical rules hate the Christian and added it to the law of their books.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

Remember in the OT, the Kings of the tribes frequently failed the Lord and went whoring after other baal, molech and other gods. Makes me wonder how many of these put their two cents in about the oral tradition. But since a good bit of this is about hating christians, much of this must have been written after Christ died, buried and resurrected in an effort to try to stamp out all reference to Christ. The Talmud clearly is not God-given scripture.




I told ya. I stand with the Jews. This is what they say:


What is Zionism?


Zionism is a movement founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896 whose goal is the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, or Zion, the Jewish synonym for Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

The name of "Zionism" comes from the hill Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was situated.

Supporters of this movement are called "Zionists".

Today there is much confusion among Jews over the meaning of the term Zionism. It means different things to different people.

The reason for this is that historically, Zionism has been a movement dominated by secularist Jews. Herzl and most of his colleagues were assimilated Jews, who did not believe in or practice the Torah. Some Zionists were vehemently anti-religious, and saw the Torah and mitzvos as outdated rituals with no place in their modern state.

Yet the essence of the Zionist idea - that Jews should return to the Holy Land and establish a government - is not inherently secular, and in fact the Zionist movement had some religious members from the very beginning.

Some Jews today use Zionism as a synonym for Israeli secularism, and thus support the State of Israel while claiming to be anti-Zionist. These people's only complaint about the State of Israel is that it is not religious enough. They hope for the day when the state will be dominated by the religious parties.

But this is not the meaning of the term Zionism as used on this site. When we talk about Zionism here, we are refering to the concept that Jews should rise up, emancipate themselves from exile without waiting for the messiah, and establish a Jewish government in the Holy Land. Using Jewish texts, we demonstrate that this concept is against the Torah and has been opposed by rabbis in all generations.

There have been hundreds of rabbis over the past century who spoke out against the Zionist movement. But because of the ambiguity of the term, it is not always possible to prove that a given rabbi meant to oppose the concept of Zionism, rather than just secularism. For this reason, religious Zionists often make the claim that much rabbinic opposition to Zionism was only because it was a secular movement. On the "Rabbinic Quotations" section of this site, we have avoided this confusion by carefully selecting those quotations that are clearly against the concept of Zionism itself. As the reader will see, these quotations alone are enough proof that almost all of the greatest sages and leaders of the Jewish people opposed the establishment of a Jewish state.

In addition, the zionist movement is more of a political, rather than religious system.



You can speak for the entire Muslim world? You got more power than our government does then. Perhaps the media reports that the muslims use the words Zionist and Jews synonymously is a result of conditioning like here in the western nations.

Not everybody who studies the zionist movement believes that there is an actual conspiracy taking place. I would have to have more evidence to form an educated opinion about the matter. I do know that as long as people do not separate the political system (zionism) from the religious system (Torah), then they will never be able to understand what the Jewish people are trying to convey when they put their writings online.

BTW, the Jewish authors have put a new and current website up:

http://www.truetorahjews.org/

Nice dodge there at the end.
You want me to educate myself, but you do not have an opinion about a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy?
Forgive me if I do not believe that you have no opinion.
Your reluctance to voice an opinion tells me all I need to know.

And by the way, 30 years ago, (when I was a teenager), I knew Jews who believed the state of Israel was an abomination.
So, this is not anything new.
A couple of other things. You state that this website you have found speaks for all the Jews, yet deny that I can know how the Muslim world speaks regarding Jews/Zionists?
I have worked with and had Muslims working for me for over 25 years. I think I have a fairly good take on how they think.
It's probably a little longer than you have been reading that website.

[Austin]

If the Jews are not to return to the place in which they are currently and establish their nation, then what is the prophecy that Ezechiel had concerning the valley of dry bones when he was commanded by God to prophesy unto these bones and when he did they rose up with flesh on them. And how is it that the Israeli armies had such great victory in the war when they reestablished their nation in the face of being out numbered ten to one and being out manned by vehicles of warfare six to one.

[bbyrd009]

Yes, I don't think either extreme position is really truth. There are many good committed people attempting to affect change from within.

[AreYouReady?]

And just for the record, I love the Jewish people. We as Christians are spiritual jews and are graphed into the natural tree. I stand with the Jewish people.

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. (Romans 11:16-18)

It is the ignorant (ignorant does not mean stupid) that assume that Jews and Zionists are one and the same. They are not and the Jewish people are explaining to us the difference.

[bbyrd009]

Ah, I went to Israel in 2010, and had a great time; and found out Israeli is not Jewish.

[AreYouReady?]

Oh and you do a little dodging yourself my friend. You haven't mentioned your opinion or refuted anything that the Jewish website has to say about Zionism.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Oh and you do a little dodging yourself my friend. You haven't mentioned your opinion or refuted anything that the Jewish website has to say about Zionism.

My opinion?
Those who believe in a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy are usually kooks.

And touting what a Jewish website says about Zionism is like someone finding a KKK website put out by Americans and trying to use it to say it represents the American viewpoint.

My opinion?
My good opinion of SH has taken a blow, due to his apparent espousing of these views.

My opinion?
You probably believe the moon landing was fake, that 9/11 was an inside job and BHO is a muslim.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

My opinion?
Those who believe in a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy are usually kooks.

And touting what a Jewish website says about Zionism is like someone finding a KKK website put out by Americans and trying to use it to say it represents the American viewpoint.

My opinion?
My good opinion of SH has taken a blow, due to his apparent espousing of these views.

My opinion?
You probably believe the moon landing was fake, that 9/11 was an inside job and BHO is a muslim.

I'm mostly not involved here, meaning to say that I haven't followed this real closely; but an issue I see with this answer is that the "kooks" ref, undoubtedly completely or at least somewhat true, serves to cover what truth may be underneath? And I'm not a conspiracy nut (which you will have cause to doubt here in a sec), but I know that people conspire.

Um, if you are not convinced that 911 was "an inside job," like the fire chief of NYC, and about 50 other people (and now, the majority of the public, I read), please see "Loose Change,"

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...58l1.1.5.1l8l0

for choices, as they're into their 3rd or 4th version, and we'll just have you explain how the Towers could possibly drop in FREE-FALL, in ignorance of physics and common sense, should you still somehow doubt "a conspiracy" (which term I really hate to use, it's so obvious) at the end.
Cool-then we may actually start having some realistic conversations on this subject?

[Scott Hutchinson]

I took a stab at a definition which probably wasn't the best way to explain things.
I don't look look for demons under every bush,but there is alot to consider on this topic.