Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrine?

[DaveC519]

Hello Dan,

But Fee, following the lead of many Evangelicals, maintains that this line of argumentation rests on a shaky hermeneutical foundation.

This statement intimates the author brought to the table his predilections instead of developing an objective hermeneutic, if indeed he was merely "following the lead of many Evangelicals".

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

If it were indeed 35%, that would be considered a massive improvement, brother.

The Last published statistic I saw put the number at 20% of their new converts have had the experience .

"In a recent news article on the A/G website, culled from a message he preached in the headquarters chapel, he notes that only 25% of new converts follow through to water baptism, and only 20% experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Further, only about 4% actually make it to the Sunday morning worship service."

http://blogrodent.wordpress.com/2006...ng-disciplers/
http://rss.ag.org/articles/detail.cf..._Source=search
http://ag.org/top/about/Statistical_Report_2004.pdf

I wanted to tend toward a liberal accounting, I couldn't remember the exact # but surely is not good.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Delta,

Their own leadership is concerned about this, they realized they are leaning more and more towards mainstream Evangelicism. Read their blogs and websites of their leadership,they see the handwriting on the wall, they will in short time will stop being a Pentecostal Denomination.

Regarding Op's Vinson Synan, the leading Scholar who studies all Pentecostal Denominiations, Movements and Streams currently reports that Oneness Pentecostals have the highest percentage of people who claim the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the intial evidence doctrine. Upwards of 90%. So there is some credible scholarship and stats for this percentage.

Originally Posted by TRFrance

That sounds about right.

I've been a member of 3 churches in my life, and there are several others I've visited quite often, to the point that I got a good feel for where they're at in terms of how the Holy Ghost moves there... and I'd put the number at about 90-95+ percent in each of those places.

I tend to disagree. Just because someone was told they spoke in tongues or got shook real hard doesn't mean they really spoke in tongues. In my old church they would have counted me in the tongue talking group because there was no way I was admitting I wasn't saved. It took me a long time to admit this.

I honestly don't think that I ever really spoke in tongues though I might have had stammering lips yet I along with another large number of "one-time" tongues talkers would be put in the tongue talker category.

I do agree that UPC churches probably have more of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost happening in their churches though. Lately I have been to the local Church of God and they are very similar to UPC in that they try to force the issue more. They do not want to lose their heritage of being Pentecostal.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I tend to disagree. Just because someone was told they spoke in tongues or got shook real hard doesn't mean they really spoke in tongues. In my old church they would have counted me in the tongue talking group because there was no way I was admitting I wasn't saved. It took me a long time to admit this.

I honestly don't think that I ever really spoke in tongues though I might have had stammering lips yet I along with another large number of "one-time" tongues talkers would be put in the tongue talker category.

I do agree that UPC churches probably have more of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost happening in their churches though. Lately I have been to the local Church of God and they are very similar to UPC in that they try to force the issue more. They do not want to lose their heritage of being Pentecostal.

You tend to disagree on that? No surprise really. But disagree with what though?

....That Vinson Synan's studies lead him to conclude that 90% of Oneness folks profess the Baptism of the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues?
...Or you disagree with the fact that in the churches I've been in, from my observation 90-95% had the Holy Ghost?

Either way...ok. So you think the number is closer to 50%. Fine. But that's an opinion, which you're entitled to, just like anyone else's opinions here.

However, it's clear to me that your opinion on this is shaped by:
1/ your own personal observation and experience , and/or
2/ Your own negativity toward mainline Oneness/UPC churches (which you've expressed quite often).

So if I had to go with either your number or Vinson Synan's, I'd think Mr Synan's number is probably closer to the correct figure.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I tend to agree with Fee in that while the experience is valid the theology needs to be examined. I find no scripture in Acts that says that speaking in tongues is THE evidence of Baptism of the Holy Ghost.
...

Let's just say that:

1) there are experiences in the Spirit subsequent to conversion/regeneration. These experiences can be called:
being filled with the Spirit, Acts 2:4; 9:17; Ephesians 5:18
the Promise of the Father, Luke 24:39; Acts 1:4; 2:33, 39
being baptized in the Spirit, Acts 1:5; 11:16
the Spirit coming upon, Acts 1:8; 19:6
the Spirit falling upon, Acts 8:16; 10:44; 11:15
receiving the Spirit, Acts 8:15, 17, 19; 19:2
the Spirit being poured out, Acts 2:33
the Spirit being given as a gift, Acts 2:38; 8:18; 10:47; 11:17

2) these experiences occur:
while praying or praising or worshiping the Lord, Luke 24:53; Acts 1:14
by the laying on of hands, Acts 8:17; 9:17; 19:6
just suddenly happening, Acts 2:2; 10:44; 11:15

3) As a result of these experiences in the Spirit certain things are observed:
speaking with tongues, Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6
prophesying, Acts 2:17, 18; 19:6
psalms, hymns, praise, singing, Acts 2:11; Ephesians 5:19-20

[bkstokes]

TR France

In Synan's study, did he talk about the rate of people receiving the Holy Ghost? Has it increased, stayed the same, or decreased say for example in this last decade?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

You tend to disagree on that? No surprise really. But disagree with what though?

....That Vinson Synan's studies lead him to conclude that 90% of Oneness folks profess the Baptism of the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues?
...Or you disagree with the fact that in the churches I've been in, from my observation 90-95% had the Holy Ghost?

Either way...ok. So you think the number is closer to 50%. Fine. But that's an opinion, which you're entitled to, just like anyone else's opinions here.

However, it's clear to me that your opinion on this is shaped by:
1/ your own personal observation and experience , and/or
2/ Your own negativity toward mainline Oneness/UPC churches (which you've expressed quite often).

So if I had to go with either your number or Vinson Synan's, I'd think Mr Synan's number is probably closer to the correct figure.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Just typing fast. I disagree that 90% of UPC members speak in tongues on a regular basis. Maybe they have spoken in tongues at one time but cease to do so on a regular basis now.

While there may be many who "profess" speaking in tongues, this could be caused by the fact that it is taught that speaking in tongues is necessary to be saved. I think I would profess it too!

Also, I am sure there are many who wept and cried but didn't speak in tongues but because they showed enough emotion that they were told they got the Holy Ghost. I think there are many here that would agree that this happens at times when the minister proclaims someone "got it" and everyone around knows that person didn't speak in tongues. We have to be honest about this.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

TR France

In Synan's study, did he talk about the rate of people receiving the Holy Ghost? Has it increased, stayed the same, or decreased say for example in this last decade?

I haven't seen this actual study. Keith4him is the one who referenced Synan's study and the 90% figure. You might want to check with Keith for more info on that.

The point I was making on that was that I would consider that number believable, based on my own experiences and observations in Pentecost over the years... and also based on the fact that I consider Synan to be generally impartial and credible in matters like this.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Sam

Let's just say that:

1) there are experiences in the Spirit subsequent to conversion/regeneration. These experiences can be called:
being filled with the Spirit, Acts 2:4; 9:17; Ephesians 5:18
the Promise of the Father, Luke 24:39; Acts 1:4; 2:33, 39
being baptized in the Spirit, Acts 1:5; 11:16
the Spirit coming upon, Acts 1:8; 19:6
the Spirit falling upon, Acts 8:16; 10:44; 11:15
receiving the Spirit, Acts 8:15, 17, 19; 19:2
the Spirit being poured out, Acts 2:33
the Spirit being given as a gift, Acts 2:38; 8:18; 10:47; 11:17

2) these experiences occur:
while praying or praising or worshiping the Lord, Luke 24:53; Acts 1:14
by the laying on of hands, Acts 8:17; 9:17; 19:6
just suddenly happening, Acts 2:2; 10:44; 11:15

3) As a result of these experiences in the Spirit certain things are observed:
speaking with tongues, Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6
prophesying, Acts 2:17, 18; 19:6
psalms, hymns, praise, singing, Acts 2:11; Ephesians 5:19-20

I like this explanation. Surely we can experience times of refreshing, being overjoyed, empowered, and being full of the Holy Spirit more so than other times. We should encourage folks to pray and yearn for the gifts and learn how to operate in the gifts.

I am just not sure that speaking in tongues is THE initial evidence though I am not completely solid on this and could change my mind.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by keith4him

In rereading this, this seems to give the reasons why the AOG is at a dry place regarding their membership receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe the last percentage was around 35% claim to be tongue talkers or have experience Tongues at all.

That percentage may be the same as the early church.

Over 500 people believed that Jesus rose from the dead and these folks were called "brethren" by Paul when he wrote about it 35 years later in 1 Corinthians 15:6. So, it looks like after Jesus' resurrection, the early church had over 500 members. However, only about 120 of these received the Holy Ghost Baptism at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2. So that equals 24 percent or less.