I agree with you, but I also believe we are given a set of filters in the New Testament which provide a sort of litmus test for who's real and who isn't. Unfortunately, those litmus tests aren't usually the ones the church today uses.
The NT litmus tests were comprised of "love for one another", "looking after orphans and widows", "keeping yourself unspotted from the world", and "bridling your tongue." The most vague of those is the one about keeping yourself unspotted from the world, which allows for the most expansive application and the most abuse (in the sense that the term can be exploited to fit nearly any agenda). The others are largely discarded in my observation, and understandably, since bridling your tongue, loving people and looking after the disenfranchised are much more difficult things to accomplish.
That said, I don't think those filters were given to us so we could go around labeling people as being in or out or tares or wheat. It's more of an FYI to help us know the people with whom we labor and be aware of who to follow and who not to follow. I don't believe that those guidelines were given to us for the purpose of taking action against others to remove them from the church. I guess my POV is that we can observe and take note, but with the humility that we don't really know what's in people's hearts (so we can't really say for SURE) and that it's God's place to deal with the fakes.
A funny little thing happened yesterday. One of my girls and I were going over a list of words from an ACT prep list, and we came across the word "sanctimonious." She didn't know the definition, so I read it to her: "making a show of being morally superior to other people"--and I added, "people who act holier than thou." She immediately responded with a snort and said, "Yeah, most of the people around here act holier than thou." I looked at her and responded with, "And that was a sanctimonious statement that you just made."
It's so hard to see ourselves while we malign and judge other people. I hope my children at LEAST get the message that they are responsible for themselves to God, and that they don't need to take on the burden of forcing others to live right, do right, speak right or even make it to heaven. More importantly, I hope they never make their relationship with God contingent on their relationships with people.
Excellent post and some great points! The "litmus tests" as you put it are pretty open to interpretation. I think when people start limiting those interpretations that trouble can happen. Of course, there are limits, which is almost another topic, meaning that church hierarchy does have to draw certain lines and remove certain people, like pastors if they are committing adultery etc. Interestingly some churches that use narrow litmus tests also like to use the "we're only human" reasoning when it comes to removal of people in higher positions of authority. This is where people will often call foul and feel hypocrisy is in the midst.
Again, these are mostly conceptual ideas that can't be drawn into black and white rules (love one another, be modest). I think there are some instances that the more they become black and white, the more dangerous it is and other instances that ARE black and white (adultery, stealing) that people try to make vague.
It is when there is this combination of of tight, narrow litmus tests that are used to prove spirituality combined with the vague litmus tests for authority figures in the same movement that things become very toxic very fast.
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
And then there are the litmus tests that Jesus gave you. The one stated most clearly, I suppose, is this one:
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
And we all know it works, too! Nobody but true followers of Christ would love each other.
And then there is the whole sheep and goats thing. Everyone who feeds the hungry, gives drink to the thirsty, takes in strangers, etc. is in. And again, nobody but Christians do that. Obviously.
(Hope your sarcasm detectors are in working order. )
The litmus tests state that Christians will do or be x, but they don't state that everyone who does x is a Christian. Nor are those statements foolproof, because people can do good things in the name of God and be doing them for their own benefit rather than for Him--or the people they are serving.
>>>The items on my dining room table are in my dining room, but not everything in my dining room is on the table. The reverse doesn't always apply.
Further, those guidelines were given as an assessment tool for those who claim to be Christians. They weren't intended as a measurement for sinners to see if they really qualify as Christians by their good works.
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
...It is when there is this combination of of tight, narrow litmus tests that are used to prove spirituality combined with the vague litmus tests for authority figures in the same movement that things become very toxic very fast.
Si, Señora!
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
The litmus tests state that Christians will do or be x, but they don't state that everyone who does x is a Christian. Nor are those statements foolproof, because people can do good things in the name of God and be doing them for their own benefit rather than for Him--or the people they are serving.
>>>The items on my dining room table are in my dining room, but not everything in my dining room is on the table. The reverse doesn't always apply.
Further, those guidelines were given as an assessment tool for those who claim to be Christians. They weren't intended as a measurement for sinners to see if they really qualify as Christians by their good works.
Religion teaches, you will benefit if you benefit G-d, so people ARE doing things for their own benefit. You reap what you sow.
There are not many people in this World, including people in Christianity, who will continue to do something that bares no physical reward.
Religion teaches, you will benefit if you benefit G-d, so people ARE doing things for their own benefit. You reap what you sow.
By doing things for their own benefit, I meant people who do things for gain that constitutes vice. Not every positive result is vice.
Quote:
There are not many people in this World, including people in Christianity, who will continue to do something that bares no physical reward.
God promises us rewards; I'm not saying that reward or benefit is bad.
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
The litmus tests state that Christians will do or be x, but they don't state that everyone who does x is a Christian.
They are presented that way. By THIS shall ALL men KNOW... The sheep were those who did the things listed. The goats were those who did not.
But sure, this must be another one of those scriptures that don't mean what they say, exactly.
Quote:
Nor are those statements foolproof, because people can do good things in the name of God and be doing them for their own benefit rather than for Him--or the people they are serving.
That was my point, yes.
Quote:
>>>The items on my dining room table are in my dining room, but not everything in my dining room is on the table. The reverse doesn't always apply.
Further, those guidelines were given as an assessment tool for those who claim to be Christians. They weren't intended as a measurement for sinners to see if they really qualify as Christians by their good works.
And I didn't say they were.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
They are presented that way. By THIS shall ALL men KNOW... The sheep were those who did the things listed. The goats were those who did not.
But sure, this must be another one of those scriptures that don't mean what they say, exactly.
Those statements were directed toward Christians. It was a filter meant to be applied to Christians--and mostly to oneself.
Quote:
That was my point, yes.
And I didn't say they were.
Yes, and I included in my original post that the statements weren't foolproof, which is why we weren't intended to be the ones doing the separating. (A concept reinforced by Jesus' parable about the tares and wheat.)
You implied that it could be applied to non-Christians with these comments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
...And we all know it works, too! Nobody but true followers of Christ would love each other.
And then there is the whole sheep and goats thing. Everyone who feeds the hungry, gives drink to the thirsty, takes in strangers, etc. is in. And again, nobody but Christians do that. Obviously.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Those statements were directed toward Christians. It was a filter meant to be applied to Christians--and mostly to oneself.
Yes, and I included in my original post that the statements weren't foolproof, which is why we weren't intended to be the ones doing the separating. (A concept reinforced by Jesus' parable about the tares and wheat.)
You implied that it could be applied to non-Christians with these comments:
So they're not actually true statements. We are in agreement, then.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
So they're not actually true statements. We are in agreement, then.
No, of course we are not in agreement that the statements are false or lies.
You want to take this:
"Let me give you a new command:Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples––when they see the love you have for each other."
...and infer that if someone loves others they must be determined to be disciples of Christ or else the statement is false.
Am I understanding your intent correctly?
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
No, of course we are not in agreement that the statements are false or lies.
You want to take this:
"Let me give you a new command:Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples––when they see the love you have for each other."
...and infer that if someone loves others they must be determined to be disciples of Christ or else the statement is false.
Am I understanding your intent correctly?
S it's true, in your view, that all men will know Christians when they see them because they love each other?
Yes, I know who the audience was. Believers. So? Is what Jesus told them actually true or not?
I say no. You have actually said, in effect, no, also. Now weasel out of it.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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