Polygamy in the Bible

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The emotioncoms are NOT the problem. Did you read what you said? Wow! You really think the Mishna, Talmud, and Masoretic Text are the same things? No wonder we're having this discussion. Doc, you really have not studied Jewish history or customs, have you?

Again, I only ask for verification that these Jewish wedding customs were observed in the time of Christ. In my studies regarding the rapture I had read or heard how these illustrative customs are actually of medieval origin and weren't practiced by Jews in the first century.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

In our society and culture polygamy would be a sin.

Remember this the next time you are arguing against culture during a standards debate.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Agreed,, lets go to the past 2000 years of civilization.. the Roman Empire forward.. we have no historical evidence of Homosexual Marriages

Actually gay marriages were quite common among the Romans. For example Roman centurions were often forbidden to marry, so they took a "pais" or young servant as a mentor and lover. These servants were regarded as special servants under Roman law. Some would argue that the centurion's servant healed by Christ was one of these "pais".

Also there is a debate regarding Daniel and Ashpenaz and the institution of eunuchs in biblical times. Some theologians believe there are sexual references between David and Jonathan. In addition some theologians point out that the law prohibiting homosexuality in ancient Israel wasn't aimed at homosexual Israelites but rather Sodomitic male temple prostitutes. They point at how no one was ever executed for "homosexuality" as commanded by the Law....but the Sodomitic male temple prostitutes were readily executed per the Law's demands.

Of course this is a very broad subject and I've only glossed over a few points.

While I don't believe gay marriage is acceptable in God's sight...my over all point is that various institutions have existed since ancient times wherein same genders were considered in civil or social union.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

TK Burk....

Can you provide a sound Jewish source illustrating this "bridesmaids" practice as described in popular commentary? I once read or heard that there was no historical foundation for this belief in ancient Jewish practice. The context of the point was in reference to the Rapture. Some use the illustration of the wedding to teach the Pre-Trib position. Post-Trib scholars point out that this practice is of medieval origin and wasn't known in the time of Christ.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Again, I only ask for verification that these Jewish wedding customs were observed in the time of Christ. In my studies regarding the rapture I had read or heard how these illustrative customs are actually of medieval origin and weren't practiced by Jews in the first century.

Yes I can. Edersheim is one.

Originally Posted by TK Burk

SKETCHES OF JEWISH SOCIAL LIFE
By Alfred Edersheim, D. D., Ph. D.
Chapter 9 - Mothers, Daughters, and Wives in Israel

The marriage followed after a longer or shorter interval, the limits of which, however, were fixed by law. The ceremony itself consisted in leading the bride into the house of the bridegroom, with certain formalities, mostly dating from very ancient times…..

It deserves notice, that at the marriage in Cana there is no mention of "the friends of the bridegroom," or, as we would call them, the groomsmen. This was in strict accordance with Jewish custom, for groomsmen were customary in Judaea, but not in Galilee (Cheth. 25 a). This also casts light upon the locality where Joh_3:29 was spoken, in which "the friend of the bridegroom" is mentioned. But this expression is quite different from that of "children of the bridechamber," which occurs in Mat_9:15, where the scene is once more laid in Galilee. The term "children of the bridechamber" is simply a translation of the Rabbinical "bene Chuppah," and means the guests invited to the bridal. In Judaea there were at every marriage two groomsmen or "friends of the bridegroom"--one for the bridegroom, the other for his bride. Before marriage, they acted as a kind of intermediaries between the couple; at the wedding they offered gifts, waited upon the bride and bridegroom, and attended them to the bridal chamber, being also, as it were, the guarantors of the bride's virgin chastity. Hence, when St. Paul tells the Corinthians (2Co_11:2): "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy; for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ," he speaks, as it were, in the character of groomsman or "bridegroom's friend," who had acted as such at the spiritual union of Christ with the Corinthian Church. And we know that it was specially the duty of the "friend of the bridegroom" so to present to him his bride. Similarly it was his also, after marriage, to maintain proper terms between the couple, and more particularly to defend the good fame of the bride against all imputations. It may interest some to know that his custom also was traced up to highest authority. Thus, in the spiritual union of Israel with their God, Moses is spoken of as "the friend of the bridegroom" who leads out the bride (Exo_19:17); while Jehovah, as the bridegroom, meets His Church at Sinai (Psa_68:7; Pirke di R. El. 41)....

Also, it's in context with what Jesus had just taught in Matthew 24 and the remainder of Matthew 25.

[Rico]

The Bible certainly seems to condone polygamy. I don't see where it is required, but it isn't condemned either. You can not call something sin the Bible doesn't call sin. If polygamy were a sin then God participated in David's sin when He gave him multiple wives. How many of you are willing to accuse God of participating in sin? Personally, I don't want any more wives and think polygamy would cause issues we aren't ready to deal with, mainly because of our Western mindset and the "liberation" of Western women. Whoever it was that said the practice goes against our Westernized culture and mindset hit the nail right on the head.

As Dora pointed out, we would pretty much have to go back to putting women back on the same level they were on when polygamy was a widespread practice in the Bible. That would mean so many changes to our Western way of living we wouldn't survive the transition. Women would have to stop working outside of the home, we'd need to go back to living in very large houses on farms, we'd have to start driving 15 passenger vans and school buses to get the whole family to church; the list goes on and on. Too much would have to change to pull it off. Our society is centered around a one woman/one man marriage. Let's leave well enough alone, agree that the Bible doesn't condemn polygamy, and also agree that going back to that way of living wouldn't be practical in America.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Yes I can. Edersheim is one.



Also, it's in context with what Jesus had just taught in Matthew 24 and the remainder of Matthew 25.

Edersheim is only commenting on an ancient medieval practice and how he believes it applies to Scripture. Please provide a "Jewish" source referencing this alleged first century "Jewish" wedding custom.

According to Jewish law, getting married is an exceedingly simple affair: The bride accepts something worth more than a dime (in today's currency) from the groom, the groom utters words of acquisition and consecration, these two actions are witnessed, and voila, the happy couple is married. All the rest, i.e., the white gown, the veil, the portable chuppah (wedding canopy), bridesmaids, etc., are but customs which have grown up around Jewish weddings through the middle ages. From my recollection none of it was observed at the time of Christ...if this is so... Christ wasn't talking about it.

Don't believe me? Look at all the marriages actually mentioned in the Bible. If you can't find any reference to it's first century practice among Jewish rabbinical writings...can you find it being observed in the Bible itself?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Rico

The Bible certainly seems to condone polygamy. I don't see where it is required, but it isn't condemned either. You can not call something sin the Bible doesn't call sin. If polygamy were a sin then God participated in David's sin when He gave him multiple wives. How many of you are willing to accuse God of participating in sin? Personally, I don't want any more wives and think polygamy would cause issues we aren't ready to deal with, mainly because of our Western mindset and the "liberation" of Western women. Whoever it was that said the practice goes against our Westernized culture and mindset hit the nail right on the head.

As Dora pointed out, we would pretty much have to go back to putting women back on the same level they were on when polygamy was a widespread practice in the Bible. That would mean so many changes to our Western way of living we wouldn't survive the transition. Women would have to stop working outside of the home, we'd need to go back to living in very large houses on farms, we'd have to start driving 15 passenger vans and school buses to get the whole family to church; the list goes on and on. Too much would have to change to pull it off. Our society is centered around a one woman/one man marriage. Let's leave well enough alone, agree that the Bible doesn't condemn polygamy, and also agree that going back to that way of living wouldn't be practical in America.

Good post Rico.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Edersheim is only commenting on an ancient medieval practice and how he believes it applies to Scripture. Please provide a "Jewish" source referencing this alleged first century "Jewish" wedding custom.

Edersheim is a Jewish convert.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Edersheim is a Jewish convert.

But Edersheim isn't referencing a first century practice. What he mentions is only found in Jewish customs in the Middle Ages. He's essentially applying his understanding of what were more recent customs to interpret the text.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Are there any references to this beyond medieval Jewish custom? For example in rabbinical writings of the Mishnah or Tulmud?

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

You about to mess them up asking for Masoretic Text...... these supposed customs make for great preaching brother.. don't mess that up for them

Brother Burk, well, lookie at what Doctor Scholar from the Holler, just presented. I think he got his degree from out of the back Fortean Times magazine.