Homosexuality Or Legalism--Which Is Worse?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

Doesn't homosexuality stem from legalism?

Isn't the moon made out of green cheese?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I both agree and disagree with you here - and maybe I'm guilty of quibbling; you decide.

Fence Sitter!

The example of pharoah comes immediately to mind. He didn't get the "chance" to repent because God had hardened his heart. Esau sought a "place of repentence" but it was too late for him. He didn't "get" to repent either. I think that we can say that you (all of us, really) must repent. But when we look at the bigger picture, we have to acknowledge that we get to repent as well. The opportunity for our repentance to be efficatious is known as God's grace.

And I agree with your statement: "repentance is not a 'work.'"

But look at the context he was saying it....it was saying essentially one does not HAVE to repent, one GETs to repent.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Of course one has to repent, but not in the sense that repentance becomes a work that we do. Repentance is a "change of mind" concerning self and sin, and is the direct result of the work of the Spirit. The very fact that Paul says salvation is "not as a result of works" but a gift in Ephesians 2:8[ESV] eliminates any perception that repentance or baptism is considered a "work" of the flesh. Rather it is a "response" of the flesh to the Spirit's work in the life of a believer.

The DIFFERENCE between your mindset and mine, is that you believe I have to repent, have to be baptized, have to get the gift of the Holy Ghost and have to be holy. I believe I get to repent, get to be baptized, and get to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and get to be holy, all because of God's amazing grace! And it all began when I believed the Gospel.

You get to do anything because you HAVE to be saved or you WILL go to a burning hell. Henceforth Jesus telling Nicodemous that Nicodemous MUST be born again.

Also the message is not that you "get to," because you don't get to do anything unless you REPENT. Do you believe that the act of repentance (which is more involved then just saying you're sorry, but a full change of thoughts enhanced by the persuasion of the Holy Ghost and the WORD) is done by free will in obedience to the preached Word?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Very few people would disagree the pharisees represents legalism. Jesus talked many times about their inconsistencies. The woman caught in adultery was the prime example of the incosistency of legalism. Legalism is consistent in lack of applying principle...

ANYONE, Legalist or NON legalist, can be inconsistant. That is NOT THE definition of a legalist and if it is then you should be comparing a legalist to everyone or everyone is a legalist because I have rarely seen a person that was never NOT inconsistant at any time in their lives. Just showing an example does not mean definition. The Pharisees also ate beef, does that make all beef eaters legalists?

It's ironic how you are insistent on using the dictionary to define legalism.

Are you sure that is irony?

Want to try to use the diction on defining apostolic?

It's fine with me. I NEVER disputed the dictionary definition of the word Apostolic. I admitted Oneness Pentecostals have their OWN definition.

Webster's New World Dictionary second edition defines apostolic as 1. of the apostles and their teachings, work, etc.. 2. of the pope; so Webster has a catholic leaning towards defining apostolic. (Thrown in at no extra charge)...

Well here is an interesting conundrum....do you agree with that definition or do you have your own here too?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I didn't say repentance or baptism is optional. I'm simply presenting the truth that one does not save themselves because even repentance does not happen unless you have heard the gospel and been convicted by the Holy Spirit. i.e. you didn't earn anything by repenting, unless you believe forgiveness is something one earns. Last time I checked the Bible informed me that Jesus paid for my forgiveness once and for all at Calvary. Repentance is a change of mind. Who changed my mind?

Ok, but it sure seems like you were saying "You don't have to be baptized, you get to be baptized" which makes it sound like an optional thing for a person wanting to be saved.

See I think most people really don't understand all this, OPs and non OPs...no you did not earn anything in repenting, but God still requires it if you are going to be His.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Fence Sitter!


But look at the context he was saying it....it was saying essentially one does not HAVE to repent, one GETs to repent.

TB, this is where I came up with asking if you leaned towards inclusionism.
I don't think I ever picked that up in our conversations before, but it does seem odd that you would double-speak and say we don't have to be saved, but we get to be saved. You must admit that it sounds odd. Could you explain this thought in more detail?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I didn't say repentance or baptism is optional.

So then you MUST be baptized in the name of Jesus, and you MUST be re-baptized if you had been baptized in titles father, son, spirit? You get to repent because you MUST repent. That's simple, you get to have a drivers license as a Canadian, but you MUST have a license to operate a vehicle on the highways of Canada. Therefore you get to repent by virtue of the Gospel message to the entire human race, but you MUST repent in order to operate in the Kingdom. When you posted that you were DIFFERENT in that you believed that we get to repent, and that others believed that we MUST repent sounded as you felt all were either saved prior or all we GET TO, be saved. Even seems as if you believe in Predestination? I'm not saying you do it just looked that way.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I'm simply presenting the truth that one does not save themselves because even repentance does not happen unless you have heard the gospel and been convicted by the Holy Spirit. i.e. you didn't earn anything by repenting, unless you believe forgiveness is something one earns.

Good this sounds like you believe in FREE WILL and therefore a person must repent and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ because they OBEYED the form of doctrine that was preached to them. They're convicted by the persuasion of the Holy Ghost and the preacher preaching and teaching and then they make a decision that they will follow the Lord. They then must continue to follow as the SPIRIT LEADS, yes, no, maybe, what do you think TB?

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Last time I checked the Bible informed me that Jesus paid for my forgiveness once and for all at Calvary. Repentance is a change of mind. Who changed my mind?

You changed your mind by coming into agreement with the information that was presented to you. As for the pricked in the heart, wording in Acts 2:37.

How can two walk together except they be agreed.


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by philjones

Pelathais,

Thank you for your series of posts and responses. I think I more clearly understand your position and you and I are VERY MUCH on the same page of the book! I think you carefulness in your writing and my redneck roughness combined to create a breakdown in communication and a subsequent misunderstanding of your statements.

If you notice my tag line on my avatar, I am very aware of the power of the free gift of grace!

Now lets move on and get these other legalists straightened out and these liberals lined up and we can have revival!

I appreciate your spirit and attitude in your posts. You have shown Christ in most every circumstance (except when you and I clashed in the beginning).

Lord Bless You!

Thanks for the clarification Phil. I am clumsy at this post-read-repost thing.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Fence Sitter!

But look at the context he was saying it....it was saying essentially one does not HAVE to repent, one GETs to repent.

Yes, and I'm giving TB the benefit of the doubt here. I don't think he actually intends to say that a person who never repents just waltzes into the Kingdom of God with any ol' attitude and sin that they want.

I think there's a nuance he's intending in order to avoid what he may fear to be overly legalistic language.

I don't want to assume that's there's more between the lines than there really is; but in this forum we are limited to just throwing one liners back and forth and so we can miss a lot of what the other guy intends.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

2Co 5:1-21
[2 Corinthians 5:1-21] ...
Second letter to Corinthian church chapter five is speaking of the βήμα a word still in use in the Modern Greek. Paul speaks of this event as being future in the context of the chapter of 2nd Corinthians five. The βήμα is where Greek athletes were be awarded the laurel wreath. Remember that all would appear before this throne and it's the same throne, which is white throne of judgement.

No. In fact you depart from basic Apostolic teaching with that application. The Larkin chart that I showed you, though somewaht dated (but it's free to post it!) shows the majority teaching of the UPCI and most Apostolic groups.

The "we all must appear..." statement Paul is making is understood to be an Apostle talking to the Church. The "all" is "all believers," or "The Church." The Corinthians were famously wayward and Paul is admonishing them.

The Bema is not the Mega Shining Thronos. The believer does not appear before the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the age because the believer has already been judged at Calvary, throughout his walk and then received his reward or watched his works be burned at the Bema judgment following the Rapture.

Your attempts to marginalize this understanding shows that you probably haven't spent a lot of time in the Apostolic movement- no big deal there, but ask around, check with people you respect.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I didn't know that the PCI group had Inclusionists in it? That is an interesting thought though?

I can't speak for the PCI since it went out of existence long before I was born. However, I do know that what I have presented here includes nothing resembling "Inclusionist" teachings, but rather the basics that a first year Bible College student gets from any UPCI endorsed Bible College. This also is expounded in the Search for Truth and Exploring God's Word home bible studies available from the PPH, UPCI Home Missions Division and other Apostolic publishers.

Apostolics have been teaching this as a standard component of their doctrine for... well for really longer than there's been a modern Apostolic movement. Either...

1) You've completely misunderstood the things that I've posted, or
2) You are tired and not really comprehending what is being said, or
3) You haven't gone through a Home Bible Study with an Apostolic