Peak 2009

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by hgpower

On the WHeel,
I know you probably just get on here to try to make people made. I guess that's OK. I am UPC. Thank you. For all your wonderfully Christianity that is so evident in your posts will fall at your feet in admiration. Get a day job and we won't have to read your rhetoric. FYI I am close friends with numerous folks in leadership with the WPF and I have never been asked to join with them or give to any of their causes. Furthermore, one of my best friends went to the President of the WPF and personally asked him about leaving and joining the WPF. Bro. Godair told him he thought it would be better for him to stay in the UPC. Their goes your idea. These are good people. They can only stay in office for two years according to their bylaws. So, that sounds like they are power hungry politicians. Good people. So, get a life and grow up. Talk about the devils crowd. If not, join a "I hate apostolics forum and you lambast us all". We are all on the same team. Get the big picture. Get out of your local gossip[ group.

Well, Mr HGPower, we will have to agree to disagree. But I must say, I am satisfied that I have written the truth.

1. For your information I have a day and night job (fact). I have only posted 54 times (55 after this one). Not too many (fact)

2. Certain leaders of the WPF were not even present to vote on the TV resolution they so vociferously opposed (fact).

3. These leaders marketed their new organization repeatedly to the whole UPCI constituency, and still do (fact).

4. Men I know were leaned on heavily to leave the UPCI (fact).

5. I have stated that these men are great men, but that these above things did indeed happen and the UPCI did suffer a loss of good men for an issue that is now not an issue (fact).

Your personal assertions that I do not have a job, I do not have a life, hate apostolics, am a gossiper, do not see the big picture, and am not a team player are all completely devoid of any empirical data (facts) and are untrue.

I do wish the WPF all the best, now that they have made their move. I also wish you the best.

Have revival and win souls, but know this.

The truth will set you free. That is what I seek for. I am sure your anecdotal evidence is true, as is mine. The truth is the truth.

Traditional holiness is not the only truth.

Perhaps we can stow the vitriol in the future and have a productive discussion.

God bless.

[hgpower]

I guess we are anxious for the names. Not just many, some, a few, (I love em all). Who was pressured to leave the UPCI? I know not any. Whose getting all the phone calls? I receive information from all kinds of apostolic groups that are not UPC. I have never been offended by their mail.
I would like to know the names of the people in the UPC who are being pressured to join the WPF. Don't just say it is happening (FACT). Give some facts. If one of my friends in the WPF were the violator - I would be shocked and would loose all confidence in them. As an evangelist, I preached for many of the leaders of the WPF and I have the highest regard for these men. I have talked with several of these men since the formation of the WPF. I have never even heard a comment to leave the UPC. I have never heard them speak against the UPC. I have not seen anyone on this forum from the WPF run the UPC down. I have seen the opposite. Why is that a FACT?
We are all now patiently waiting for the names. Names. That is what we all want. We are on the wait for the FACTS (Names). Who's calling who? Lift the shroud of secrecy and reveal to us these apostolic rascals whose sole purpose is to bring the UPC down. I personally don't believe they exist. If your telling the truth, then I feel cheated. No one asked me to join. No one pleaded with me to leave.

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by hgpower

I guess we are anxious for the names. Not just many, some, a few, (I love em all). Who was pressured to leave the UPCI? I know not any. Whose getting all the phone calls? I receive information from all kinds of apostolic groups that are not UPC. I have never been offended by their mail.
I would like to know the names of the people in the UPC who are being pressured to join the WPF. Don't just say it is happening (FACT). Give some facts. If one of my friends in the WPF were the violator - I would be shocked and would loose all confidence in them. As an evangelist, I preached for many of the leaders of the WPF and I have the highest regard for these men. I have talked with several of these men since the formation of the WPF. I have never even heard a comment to leave the UPC. I have never heard them speak against the UPC. I have not seen anyone on this forum from the WPF run the UPC down. I have seen the opposite. Why is that a FACT?
We are all now patiently waiting for the names. Names. That is what we all want. We are on the wait for the FACTS (Names). Who's calling who? Lift the shroud of secrecy and reveal to us these apostolic rascals whose sole purpose is to bring the UPC down. I personally don't believe they exist. If your telling the truth, then I feel cheated. No one asked me to join. No one pleaded with me to leave.

I can't betray a confidence, so no names today. I will say this again. I have deep respect for most of the WPF leadership as pastors, preachers, and theologians of first rank.

But they are not perfect, and we are simply pointing out the facts. The only reason I even bring it up is because they have disparaged the direction the UPCI is taking by their actions. Even the statement "A preferred Apostolic future" they used in the beginning smacked of superiority.

All I am saying is that, "He who lives in glass houses should not throw stones." Are the UPCI leadership blameless? Are you kidding me? Of course not!! They are imperfect also.

As a parting comment, It is somewhat naive for you to think no-one was encouraged to join the WPF in the crazy days that immediately followed the Resolution vote. How much was done no one will ever know, but it did happen.

So, love the WPF and enjoy your time there, and have revival. What's done is done.

[theman238]

Originally Posted by On The Wheel

I can't betray a confidence, so no names today. I will say this again. I have deep respect for most of the WPF leadership as pastors, preachers, and theologians of first rank.

But they are not perfect, and we are simply pointing out the facts. The only reason I even bring it up is because they have disparaged the direction the UPCI is taking by their actions. Even the statement "A preferred Apostolic future" they used in the beginning smacked of superiority.

All I am saying is that, "He who lives in glass houses should not throw stones." Are the UPCI leadership blameless? Are you kidding me? Of course not!! They are imperfect also.

As a parting comment, It is somewhat naive for you to think no-one was encouraged to join the WPF in the crazy days that immediately followed the Resolution vote. How much was done no one will ever know, but it did happen.

So, love the WPF and enjoy your time there, and have revival. What's done is done.

Yeah! We don't sell nobody out! The WWF rules!

[HammondMan]

I was raised UPC, but left the church and backslid. I went through a divorce, lost my family, lost my house, lost my job. The whole nine yards. I remember one of the first emotions that went through my mind was how those church "brothers and sisters" that I grew up with, seemed to appear as if they considered themselves better than me after I left. It was a lie straight from Hell. Only God knows how many were actually praying for me. I was out for 17 years. While I was out, unknown to me, many of my music contemporary 'idols', failed and/or left the UPC. Their standards compromised, for whatever reason, as they became big name "brands", "in the business" which was profitable (at least monetarily) to them, I'm sure.

I've now been back for a little over ten years. I attend a UPC church, and personally I think it's the best church in my area. Why wouldn't I? However I find many in "the church" looking to the world for their examples, including music, and worship. Almost like Lot pitching his tent toward Sodom. I've been there. It's not someplace anyone needs to pattern their life, or their worship by. Ironically, I hear UPC folks mentioning how the WPF folks act like their "so much better" than us. Be cautious, that sounds close to the sentiment I had when I backslid. Could it be an indication?

I'm very concerned about our music, and our praise. God is a jealous god, and we are to have NOTHING that is more important than HIM. Rather than choosing our music and worship by the names of "American Idols" (or Australian, for that matter), perhaps we should 'Google', the keywords; "Jesus, HolyGhost, Pentecostal, worship, praise", rather than the names of men? (check www.apostoliclive.net for Marvin Hicks, "Canned Worship"). Pray for me. I have difficulty playing for services where the Artist, and the song's placement on this weeks CCM chart is the determining factor of the selections. Particularly when my Bible tells me to do everything in the Name of Jesus, but none of the songs have His Name.

God has richly blessed me since my return, and for that, I am forever grateful. In the last ten years, HE has given me more than I ever had before.

Praise His Name - Jesus - and He is ONE.

[CC1]

HammondMan,

Glad you found your way back to God. We are probably miles apart in our beliefs but we can both rejoice that God was there for you with open arms and you gave your life to him again.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by HammondMan

I was raised UPC, but left the church and backslid.

God has richly blessed me since my return, and for that, I am forever grateful. In the last ten years, HE has given me more than I ever had before.

Praise His Name - Jesus - and He is ONE.

Welcome back to UPC, a great organization. I too was away for 17 years with another organization. I share your concern about the music and I use the term music loosely. There is no depth only loudness. Years ago we were concerned that other denominations were taking the blood out of their songs, now we have. By the way I have been around UPC as long as there has been a UPC and even before. Since 1939 to be exact.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Welcome back to UPC, a great organization. I too was away for 17 years with another organization. I share your concern about the music and I use the term music loosely. There is no depth only loudness. Years ago we were concerned that other denominations were taking the blood out of their songs, now we have. By the way I have been around UPC as long as there has been a UPC and even before. Since 1939 to be exact.

There are many contemporary songs that talk about the blood -- and in addition to that, the message of the cross.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Now here's a song that really has some spiritual depth. Someone must have written their bad dream about rain in the face.

Rain, rain on my face
It hasn't stopped raining for days
My world is a flood
Slowly I become one with the mud

[Chorus:]

But if I can't swim after forty days
and my mind is crushed by the thrashing waves
Lift me up so high that I cannot fall
Lift me up
Lift me up - when I'm falling
Lift me up - I'm weak and I'm dying
Lift me up - I need you to hold me
Lift me up - Keep me from drowning again

Downpour on my soul
Splashing in the ocean, I'm losing control
Dark sky all around
I can't feel my feet touching the ground

[Chorus]

Calm the storms that drench my eyes
Dry the streams still flowing
Cast down all the waves of sin
And guilt that overthrow me

[Chorus]

Lift me up - when I'm falling
Lift me up - I'm weak and I'm dying
Lift me up - I need you to hold me
Lift me up - Keep me from drowning again (how many times can you drown?)

[HammondMan]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Welcome back to UPC, a great organization. I too was away for 17 years with another organization. I share your concern about the music and I use the term music loosely. There is no depth only loudness. Years ago we were concerned that other denominations were taking the blood out of their songs, now we have. By the way I have been around UPC as long as there has been a UPC and even before. Since 1939 to be exact.

Just a little clarification, and not that it really matters. I'm not a minister, unless you consider music/musicians "ministry". I guess it would be splitting hairs to say I left the UPC. I didn't necessarily "leave the UPC", I never "belonged" to the UPC (I'm not a minister). I was just raised, and attended a UPC church all my life, except during the time I was backslid.

One actual point I was trying to make, is that when I returned to church, I found that a lot of the old landmarks had been removed. And then the WPF came into being. At which point I was promptly informed "They (the WPF) think they're better than everyone else." At this point, the memories flooded my soul. These were the very sentiments (about my UPC church) I had when I backslid (and those sentiments were untrue). And now I'm hearing UPC ministers using the same words (about the WPF).

I decided to take a "Berean" approach, and check things out myself. I do not know all the particulars leading up the birth of the WPF, but I do know it wasn't just one thing. My parents, who are in their 80's, remember the birth of the UPC. It wasn't a pleasant birth either. I'm told one minister socked another minister in the jaw while debating Jesus name baptism. Regardless, I went to Summit 2009, and I'll be going back next year.

A tad more on the music (which is unrelated to this thread). We all have musical styles we prefer, and some have preferences that are more widespread. Regardless of the style, or genre of the accompaniment, you can't go wrong with songs about Jesus, the Blood, or a song of testimony of what God has done, or brought you through. These are mentioned as weapons of spiritual warfare in the Bible. The Name ("Jesus" - you need to SAY it), the Blood, and "the word of their testimony".

I can remember feeling the "bump" of the music while waiting in line to get in the clubs, and once in, heading for the dance floor. I hear similar "bumps" now at Pentecostal gatherings, and see immediate reaction from an unknowing crowd. Yes, it's all done for Jesus. But this "second temple" worship doesn't compare to the "first temple" worship, when the songs literally were about Jesus, the HolyGhost, etc., instead of us singing about us. (and I'm not saying all new music is "bad" - - there are good [subjective] new songs - they're just not on the "Hits" list. "Jesus" songs don't sell as well as songs about us, and how we "feel".)

Sorry, this is supposed to be WPF news - I didn't mean to get on my musical soapbox.