Incarnation OR Indwelling?

[Tim Rutledge]

Originally Posted by Esther

Didn't want to lose this discussion from another thread.

Posted by Mapleleaf

The Son was not a body in which God dwelt; the Son was God manifested in flesh, Emmanuel, God with us.


It is the difference between incarnation and indwelling.

In Christ, God did not indwell a man, God became a man.

The birth of Christ was a unique joining of absolute Deity with perfect humanity, and of this we say, great is the mystery of godliness."

Jesus was the Holy Ghost (Father) in flesh. God incarnate.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Steve,
your polemics are so familiar from previous dances we have had together, I'll let you jump around wherever you want but I'm heading out for lunch.

Jesus could not be touched because he had yet to ascend to his father and his God.

Jesus testified that his witness and the witness of the father statisfied the law requiring TWO witnesses.

Jesus testified that the words he spoke were not his own.

Jesus testified that the works done through him were done by his father.

Jesus testified that his father was greater than he.

What's new I ahve preached that all my life he had BOTH human and Divine natures as MAN everything you posted is realized but as God the rest of the equation is seen.
Are you saying Jesus was ONLY a man indwelled by the Spirit like us with the exception of the virgin birth?

[PMBrown]

Bro. Epley is right and Mapleleaf is wrong. God became a real human being. This is the great mystery and wonder of who Jesus is, and this is the root of the great power and depth of Who Jesus is. To miss this is to miss much of the Christian life.

Incidentally, part of the problem is that people put too much stock in trying to wrap their mind around God. Seriously, why should anyone think that we should be able to understand the nature of the God who made quantum physics and the galaxies. The gospel can be understood, but it is arrogance to assume that God can.

We only know of God what He has revealed to us through His Spirit and His Word. And He has NOT revealed everything to us.

Many people are simply not happy with that, and so spin their wheels.

[Shawn]

So the Father is obviously omnipresent and all knowing. The Divinty.

Then, the Humanity is always speaking of the Son.



So when Jesus is speaking to the Father.....that's the Human nature speaking to the Divinte nature. Not 2 persons(I'm not a trinitarian).


So?? is it safe to say, That Jesus Humanity was truly not omnipresent and'all knowing' and only had access to certain knoweldge as the Father(his divinie nature) gave it to him. For instance Nathaniel under the fig tree. Did Jesus Divinte nature reveal that to his Human nature...

.....But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


did Jesus Divine nature know this but it was not revealed to his human nature.


Hopefully this doesn't seem silly....guess I'm thinking outloud......Just trying to reconcile a few things.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Steve, your question does not give me any clear terms to use to reply. “In the same way?” what does mean?

So I will offer this for others…
The spirit of God indwelled his only begotten Son by virtue of God making his abode with his Son. So in that regard, YES, God indwelled his only begotten Son “in the same way”.

But what your question doesn’t even consider is the dramatic differences between our ROAD to the earthly REALM and the manner by which the only begotten Son of God entered into this earthly stage.

I am from BELOW, the only begotten Son of God is from ABOVE.
I was born first of the earth, earthly. I was first born of the will of my earthly father.

He was born of the will of the Spirit. He was fathered (begat by) the Spirit of God when God’s word spoke the creative seed that fertilized the OVUM in his handmaiden Mary. AT THIS POINT, God’s WORD/SEED became flesh.

So, YES, God’s Spirit indwells me in the SAME MANNER as his spirit INDWELLS his only begotten Son, but the origins of the two lives in which God is tabernacled, are different.

Also, John 3:31-36 reveals that the God gave the Spirit to his only begotten Son NOT WITH MEASURE, but we, as children by adoption, have only the earnest of our promise while we remain in these earthly vessels.

John 3:31-36

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

e that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

Excellent thoughts TBPew! We are even now in the process of becoming like him. [Jesus]. We are taught in scripture that he is to be called the son of God Luke 1:35.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he [Jesus] shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Raven

[ForeverBlessed]

The Spirit indwelled in Christ and also in us.

We are meant to be one body with Christ… he was the Son of God… and now we have the same Spirit and are the sons of God. He is the vine, we are the branches.. through him, fruit is produced and gives glory to the Father.

Christ is the head of the body... but there is just one body. Since when do we consider any part of our body not to be a part of who we are. The source of life is God… who is Spirit.

We are meant to do everything that Jesus Christ did here on Earth… if we are not meant to do this, please provide scriptural backing showing that we are not.

Did he tell them to remit sins?

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Power comes from knowledge… it is knowing the source… and giving credit to the source. God is ultimately the one who forgives sins, heals, but it was Christ that put it into action.... now we who have been grafted in and can through faith can operate in the same power to touch lives.... because it is from the same Spirit..

The problem today lies in the fact that there is a lack of knowledge and with knowledge, comes faith.... you cannot help but have faith when you "know" or truly believe. Signs will follow them that believe.... following the example given for us by Christ....abiding in him as we submit our lives to the Father and follow, and live as Jesus did... he paved the way... paid the price, so we also operate in the same power in the very same way... and it all gives glory to the Father.

and whatever poster brought up joint heirs.... well, you can't get any plainer than this, God forbid we would actually take it for what it says: Romans 8:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I had posted in another thread... suffering with him is not suffering because of hardships of this life but it is the suffering that takes place when we lay down our lives and walk different than the world or man's thinking and submit ourselves to the mind of Christ...then the suffering brings glory to God...

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

Fairly recently, I have come to believe that it was more of an indwelling than an incarnation.

I don't know if that falls into traditional oneness or not - probably not. I have heard several messages and discussions that talk about not minimizing Christ's human-ness, as it was the necessary component for him to die for our redemption. The indwelling concept is interesting to me in that it makes Jesus the perfect example of a human given over completely to the spirit of God. He was all God, but not all OF God. To me that makes him truly magnificent as it allows for the same fleshly desires and limitations that we have, but fully led by the spirit within him - as we should be.

The Bible declares that Jesus is God, the Almighty, unquestionably and not a simple indwelling like you and I experience when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. (that would be Unitarianism).

The Bible also teaches that Jesus was/is indwelt by the Holy Spirit/Father.

And lastly the Bible teaches that God became man. He became in all things like us. This is the comprehension struggle of the ages. How do we understand all these things together? How do we reconcile God becoming man and at the same time being indwelled by God? Because without question, Jesus sees himself as someone other than the Holy Spirit/Father.

This conversation has been going on for thousands of years. Without argument, it's a great mystery. The doctrine of the Trinity was created in an attempt to solve this mystery.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The Bible declares that Jesus is God, the Almighty, unquestionably and not a simple indwelling like you and I experience when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. (that would be Unitarianism).

The Bible also teaches that Jesus was/is indwelt by the Holy Spirit/Father.

And lastly the Bible teaches that God became man. He became in all things like us. This is the comprehension struggle of the ages. How do we understand all these things together? How do we reconcile God becoming man and at the same time being indwelled by God? Because without question, Jesus sees himself as someone other than the Holy Spirit/Father.

This conversation has been going on for thousands of years. Without argument, it's a great mystery. The doctrine of the Trinity was created in an attempt to solve this mystery.

I posted this in another thread... I will post this here... I don't have time to write again... I'm leaving work and got a busy weekend ahead of me.

I don't care if the conversation has been going on for years... it is what God has shown me in his word... I rarely get to this section of the forum.. so recently is the first time I have read about it here. It is like a puzzle piece started fitting together correctly... now the scripture fits... I do not see three, or two.. I clearly see one... God is Spirit... there is but one God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the father... but it was in his actions, words that was the image of God... his life totally fulfilled the word of God spoken...which did begin with a thought. He was the faithful witness to everything spoken of prophets of old. Mt 2:23 Mt 5:17
The Spirit of God was IN Christ... but was not him...only the invisible expressed in action.
Because the Son paid the price... everything that we do walking, living according to the Word brings glory to him... by everything we say and do. I'm so thankful for the sacrifice... for the Word bridged the gap between man and God..

My biggest issue with saying that Jesus was just God wrapped up in flesh is basically saying that he had an advantage... it takes away from the sacrifice of Jesus overcoming temptation of sin and submitting his will to the Father....the ultimate sacrifice of giving your life for another... true love, he paid it all... and because of that, he can help us in temptations... Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. If we think he had an advantage...then we will always make excuses for not walking towards perfection through him.

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever.

btw, God cannot be tempted and neither will he tempt anyone. James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (yet Jesus was tempted) Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

You cannot take God and make him flesh in any way.... God (who is Spirit) was IN Christ Jesus....and now God can be in us as well... dwelling in us as we conform to his image as the body of Christ.

[mizpeh]

Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the father... but it was in his actions, words that was the image of God... his life totally fulfilled the word of God spoken...which did begin with a thought. He was the faithful witness to everything spoken of prophets of old. Mt 2:23 Mt 5:17

Was Jesus the Word made flesh? John 1:14 How would you define "Word"? John 1:1 states the Word was God not a thought, not an image, not an action.

The Spirit of God was IN Christ... but was not him...only the invisible expressed in action.

Is it possible that Jesus not only was God existing as a man but was also anointed by God?

If you don't believe Jesus was God, you have to explain what he meant when He said in Rev 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Jesus said other things that indicated that He was/is God. The writers of the NT believed that Jesus was/is God.

Because the Son paid the price... everything that we do walking, living according to the Word brings glory to him... by everything we say and do. I'm so thankful for the sacrifice... for the Word bridged the gap between man and God..

The Word did bridge the gap when the Word became flesh. But the Word was God and the Word became man. These are not easy to reconcile nor explain whether you are Oneness or a Trinitarian. And a Unitarian has to explain away all the verses that teach the Messiah is God in the flesh. The Son shall be called The Mighty God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

My biggest issue with saying that Jesus was just God wrapped up in flesh is basically saying that he had an advantage... it takes away from the sacrifice of Jesus overcoming temptation of sin and submitting his will to the Father....the ultimate sacrifice of giving your life for another... true love, he paid it all... and because of that, he can help us in temptations... Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. If we think he had an advantage...then we will always make excuses for not walking towards perfection through him.

Then you may be surprised that many agree with your sentiments. Even though I believe Jesus is God Himself revealed in flesh, I do not believe Jesus did or said anything from His divine nature. He functioned as a man anointed by God. Jesus' very words attest to this fact.

John 7:16-17 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Some people refer to the setting aside or nonuse of divine powers as a kenosis or an emptying. I see it somewhat differently.

You cannot take God and make him flesh in any way.... God (who is Spirit) was IN Christ Jesus....and now God can be in us as well... dwelling in us as we conform to his image as the body of Christ.

God was Christ and God was in Christ. You have to accept both of these statements because it is what the Bible declares. How you reconcile these statements is up to you.

[ForeverBlessed]

I want to say also... I studied because something is missing. I am not satisfied with how things are... I've had lots of questions that I could not answer... it has made me search for answers. I believe that when I ask with a sincere heart, God is going to give to me. I was at a place in my life if I can't understand and see him for who he is.. I'm done, cause I was done playing church... or done w/religion.

I would read an online book of David Bernards... and I still couldn't make it fit... One thing that always got me was the fact that the letters always start off acknowleging God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. I poured over the scripture of order in 1 Cor 11... I just kept reading and searching.

See.... the first thing I was struggling with was that Jesus had the ability to sin... know that might sound crazy...but see I was raised to believe that Jesus was God himself robed in a fleshly body... so I was first faced with the fact that it wasn't true... and then from there I just kept asking "how then God" was a very frequent prayer while praying.

One night about three years ago, I was sitting in my car outside the church where my brother pastors... I was asking God to help me understand... once again. "how then??" He spoke very audibly to me (this has only happened a few times in my life) very plainly was it spoken as chills ran up and down me... the words were "I was in him just the same as I dwell in you"

It wasn't much longer that I was reading and studying and I saw how Jesus was the Word... how the very life he lived fulfilled every scripture, every prophesy spoken... he became the living Word of God.. I can't explain it other than I was unable to sleep all night long... when I saw it, I saw it and rejoiced all night long... tears, shouting.. one of the most awesome experiences. It was his life, his testimony, the actions that was the manifestation of God.

It went from there to seeing how we have made a God out of the fleshly man Christ Jesus... people still view and think of God as flesh...and that he is coming back in the flesh.. on a real white horse no less... i just know from studying that flesh cannot be God... they are opposites.

I read and the more I study, the more I understand... I've found that fasting and prayer along with the studying that God is showing me who he is... and the more I go the more I realize I am still so far away from truly knowing him.

What I do know though, can't be shaken because its been revealed by God...not man.

sorry for my rambles.