Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jesus?

[Jack Shephard]

IF God/Jesus did not need Judas to perform His will then He doesn't need us. I believe that when Jesus came from the womb His life pointed towards calvary. Not matter who and no matter what He was going there. Just like we are heading to our fate. That being said we need everyone in our life to touch us in a way that pushes us toward or into our fate/destiny. So it was with Jesus. God became flesh to fulfill the salvation process for us. Since we know that flesh was God in flesh He was still subject to the flesh, i.e. He was tempted like us. I believe Jesus needed Judas to betray Him in order to fullfil His plan just like he needed Peter to preach the sermon on Pentecost. He needed Judas just like He needed Barabas (son of the father) to be freed inorder from Him to die on the cross. He needed Judas just like He needs us to perform His good will or His good pleasure.

SORRY IF THAT INFO WAS A REPEAT

The "SON OF HELL or PERDITION" are pretty powerful words!

If this was his choice... then why did Satan enter into him? Did Judas ask Satan to enter into him? We know that Judas was saved because Jesus said so..... Jesus told all his disciples to rejoice that their name was in the Lambs book of Life... therefore we know that Judas was saved....... but yet SATAN ENTERED INTO HIM.. he was called the "Son of Hell" one who is BORN OF HELL

[bishoph]

Our finite minds often have difficulty understanding the foreknowledge of God. This disparity causes some to equate God's foreknowledge with predetermining the actions or outcome of the individual. Because God knows the end from the beginning, he is able to see what choices we make. Yet in his unmeasurable love and mercy he continues to give us opportunity to accept him in spite of what he may already know about our end. That does not mean he predetermines our actions, nor does that make me pre-deposed to be saved or lost.

IMO the grace, mercy, and long-suffering (goodness) of God leadeth to repentance, so then in the foreknowledge of God he knew that Judas was going to be lost. Yet he came and walked with him, giving him every chance to believe and be saved.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Our finite minds often have difficulty understanding the foreknowledge of God. This disparity causes some to equate God's foreknowledge with predetermining the actions or outcome of the individual. Because God knows the end from the beginning, he is able to see what choices we make. Yet in his unmeasurable love and mercy he continues to give us opportunity to accept him in spite of what he may already know about our end. That does not mean he predetermines our actions, nor does that make me pre-deposed to be saved or lost.

IMO the grace, mercy, and long-suffering (goodness) of God leadeth to repentance, so then in the foreknowledge of God he knew that Judas was going to be lost. Yet he came and walked with him, giving him every chance to believe and be saved.

Now Bishop, think about those words..... lets imagine that the night before Judas betrayed Jesus... of his own will he decided against it... repented... NO ONE ELSE was in the position that he was in to fulfill prophecy..... So personally I do not believe he could have repented and NOT DONE what he did... he was born for this purpose "that scripture might be fulfilled"

So,,, who else is glad that Judas did not repent?

and what if he had..... who would have been in the position to fulfill the plan of God?

[clgustaveson]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

bump

The questions in this thread are so over discussed.

I don't mean the actual questions but the result of the question.... it is like someone just wants to keep rehashing the Calvinism debate.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Now Bishop, think about those words..... lets imagine that the night before Judas betrayed Jesus... of his own will he decided against it... repented... NO ONE ELSE was in the position that he was in to fulfill prophecy..... So personally I do not believe he could have repented and NOT DONE what he did... he was born for this purpose "that scripture might be fulfilled"

So,,, who else is glad that Judas did not repent?

and what if he had..... who would have been in the position to fulfill the plan of God?

Dr. Vaughn,

Do you then espouse to the idea that people are predetermined/predestined by God to be Lost/saved?

Originally Posted by bishoph

Dr. Vaughn,

Do you then espouse to the idea that people are predetermined/predestined by God to be Lost/saved?

Bishop

I espouse to the idea that God is God and he is Sovereign and just like he killed all the babies of the Amelekites he is Supreme Ruler and whatever he does or does not do will never be understood by the likes of mere humans....

Just yesterday my Son could not understand one of my decisions.. and granted my decision looked mighty unfair at the time... but he does not have my understanding nor my experience and therefore his continual questioning of my decision will only frustrate him more because it is not for him at his level to understand.. it is simply for him to accept....

So to answer your question, I absoutely believe that Judas was born to fulfill his destiny as the Son of Perdition or the SOn of Hell

I absolutely believe that a man named Adolf Hitler was born to be "the Hunter" that drove Gods people back to the LAND he had given unto them.... I absolutely believe that "Babylon was a golden cup in the Hand of the Lord" yes. that would be that evil babylon that destroyed Gods people.. yes I absolutely believe that "for this purpose did God raise Pharoah up" ......

However, I also believe that God in his foreknowledge knew the SPirits of these men and he knew their choices and with that foreknowledge raised them up to fulfill the roles that they had to play in the great Drama of Redemption

Watching my sons and their different character flaws, their imperfections.. I know where they are weak and where they are strong..... as I begin making decisions about their future I will do so with the understanding of what roles they will best fit in.... not because I am MAKING THEM fill those roles but because with my limited foreknowledge I can see the decisions they will make

[SDG]

Dr. Vaughn are you saying salvation then would not be have been available to Judas, Hitler, etc. .... EVER?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Dr. Vaughn are you saying salvation then would not be have been available to Judas, Hitler, etc. .... EVER?

It would not be available to them in the fact that God knew they would never seek for it...

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

It would not be available to them in the fact that God knew they would never seek for it...

This is much like the proverbial "which came first the chicken or the egg," the "could Jesus have sinned if he wanted too," the what if the prodigal son had never returned home" questions. The fact is that according to scripture the chicken came first, Jesus did not sin, and the prodigal son did return home. So also Pharaoh's heart was hardened, Judas betrayed Jesus, yet this does not establish whether God predetermined (caused/manipulated) them to commit their respective transgressions.

In my first post I mentioned that the foreknowledge of God does not violate man's freewill, (choice) rather it simply knows the end result of that freewill. While you and I agree that God knew the choices Pharaoh and Judas would make, and that God allowed them to fulfill specific roles in the course of his redemptive plan, to assume that this means they did not possess the "whosoever will" option is soteriologically dangerous. Why then preach to the "lost?" It appears that you believe that those destined to be saved/lost will be saved/lost regardless of their choices, thus fulfilling God's "warped" plan of good and evil.