I have Left the UPC Church

[CC1]

Michlow,

I better not run into you at an airport six months from now and see you bald headed and chanting "Hari Krishna"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Ronzo

TRUTH can, sis.

What's left after you've sifted it, will be Truth.

Ron,

That is a nice ideal, but not necessarily so.

A lot of folks do a lot of sifting, and come up with something a long way from truth.

Some folks put what they have been taught in the sifter, and come up believing not much of anything.

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

I didn't say anything about removing any of those, did I?

Thanks.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Ron,

That is a nice ideal, but not necessarily so.

A lot of folks do a lot of sifting, and come up with something a long way from truth.

Some folks put what they have been taught in the sifter, and come up believing not much of anything.

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

Coonskinner,

I share your concern that too many folks ignore the clear picture given in the Epistles of the importance of the "five fold ministry" in ones Christian walk.

Dan Scott talks about the heresay of people who live by that old song "Me and Jesus got our own thing goin' on".

You ought to post a little Bible Study on the five fold ministry as a new thread. I probably would not agree with all of it but I am sure I would much.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

CS,

I understand what you are saying and agree with it to a certain extent, but if we can't trust our own perceptions, what can we trust??

You mention three things that can be trusted.

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

Interpreted by who?

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

The Holy Ghost by what perception?

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

The five-fold ministry based on what guidelines?

See, this is somewhat circular logic you are using. I think that we DO have to base our choices on all these things......but, in the minds of some, all these things MUST lead to a certain interpretation of scripture or it is automatically assumed that the perception and/or motive of the person doing the praying is wrong. The pharisees would have loved this reasoning.

[Brett Prince]

Originally Posted by Ronzo

I didn't say anything about removing any of those, did I?

Thanks.

Sorry, Ron, but you don't have to say things particularly to come across in a certain way. If Michlow is simply going to decide for herself what truth is, then she is going to effectively do just as CS has said.

In my post, I talked about having to stand where she is rather than fit a camp. That may also have come across as placing her as the sole arbiter of truth. That was not my point at all. My point was that she has to follow God, and allow her own convictions through the Word to shape her, not trying to fit somebody's camp. This caused much confusion for me through the years. I still had to listen to the five fold ministry, and I still had to be in the Word and in the Spirit.

Ron, you may well be in the same position as I, then, not intending what it may have looked like. If so, my apologies from the start.

[COOPER]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Ron,

That is a nice ideal, but not necessarily so.

A lot of folks do a lot of sifting, and come up with something a long way from truth.

Some folks put what they have been taught in the sifter, and come up believing not much of anything.

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

The five fold ministry is the weakest link. They are only sinners saved by grace.

Don't lean on your understanding, nor another mans understanding.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Ronzo

I didn't say anything about removing any of those, did I?

Thanks.

You did not.

But your post indicated unequivocally that what was sifted by her--one individual--would be truth.

None of us alone can be the arbiters of truth.

That must be done in the context of the checks and balances given the Body of Christ.

Isolating one's self to search for truth is unscriptural and will always end up in deception.

Paul came and checked what he believed to be revelation with Peter and John before he would trust that it was right.

[nathan_slatter]

Originally Posted by ILG

See, this is somewhat circular logic you are using. I think that we DO have to base our choices on all these things......but, in the minds of some, all these things MUST lead to a certain interpretation of scripture or it is automatically assumed that the perception and/or motive of the person doing the praying is wrong. The pharisees would have loved this reasoning.

Exactly...

But I'm already chalked up as being deceived, delusion, heretical, and a whole host of other things by many. In the end, though, I agree with those 3 requirements.... and because I don't come to the same conclusion I'm obviously not right -- due to my obvious postmodern bent, which is alleged to bring about moral relativity and a whole host of other things.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by COOPER

The five fold ministry is the weakest link. They are only sinners saved by grace.

Don't lean on your understanding, nor another mans understanding.

They are God's Gift to the Church.

At least, that is what the Bible says.

Thanks for your estimation and esteem of what God gave His people.

I would perhaps describe the gift a little differently.