Question About Predestination

[mfblume]

God FOREKNEW who would CHOOSE to love Him, and predestinated THOSE PARTICULAR ONES to go through a process of being conformed into his image. To FOREKNOW is not the PREDESTINATE. He predestinates the ones he foreknew would love him. Those who choose not to love him are not predestinated TO BE CONFORMED. That doesn't mean we cannot backslide. It just means God planned for us to go through a process of CONFORMING. And this includes all things working to good for those whom he foreknew would love him.

He looked ahead in time, saw who would CHOOSE to love him, and said THOSE ONES will go through a conforming process. Anybody can CHOOSE to love God, but God does not make anyone love him or not love him.

Romans 8:28-29 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

God FOREKNEW who would CHOOSE to love Him, and predestinated THOSE PARTICULAR ONES to go through a process of being conformed into his image. To FOREKNOW is not the PREDESTINATE. He predestinates the ones he foreknew would love him. Those who choose not to love him are not predestinated TO BE CONFORMED. That doesn't mean we cannot backslide. It just means God planned for us to go through a process of CONFORMING. And this includes all things working to good for those whom he foreknew would love him.

He looked ahead in time, saw who would CHOOSE to love him, and said THOSE ONES will go through a conforming process. Anybody can CHOOSE to love God, but God does not make anyone love him or not love him.

Romans 8:28-29 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1. God knows everybody whoever lived, or who is alive.

2. Romans 8:29 says he predestinated a certain class of people.

3. That predestination is to being conformed to the image of His Son.

4. The class said to be predestinated is those whom God foreknew.

5. Romans 11:2 identifies the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israelites) as the ones whom he foreknew.

Therefore, predestination has to do with Israelites being conformed to the image of Christ.

Ephesians 1:11 places our inheritance in Christ along with our predestination. By being in Christ, we have an inheritance. Predestination is, like justification, sanctification, and glorification, only found in Christ. One enters into the destiny predetermined by God for His people by being in Christ.

The Bible explains itself.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Predestination in Christian circles is OSAS, and teaches that some are predestined to heaven while others are predestined to hell. Just the idea of one being predestined to either destination assures you that you couldn't lose your salvation or your damnation.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Predestination in Christian circles is OSAS, and teaches that some are predestined to heaven while others are predestined to hell. Just the idea of one being predestined to either destination assures you that you couldn't lose your salvation or your damnation.

So Calvin DID misunderstand predestination:
we do not agree with his doctrine. Men are not predestined
to be saved, although it is God will that "...all men should
come to repentance."

What is predestined is salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ,
"...before the foundation of the world." Before the worlds were
created, God saw the problem (Gen 1:2), and applied
the solution (Gen. 1:3).

Calvin's predestination is not in my circle of Christians.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Light

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I noticed the term "predestination" is lacking in that passage. So is any reference to heaven or hell....

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Light

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

This explains the sovereignty of God in election. To most this makes God unrighteous. Paul acknowledges this in verse 14.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Men say it would not be fair for God to be sovereign in election. Paul counters it would not be fair to God....the potter to not be able to do whatever he wants with the clay.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This explains the sovereignty of God in election. To most this makes God unrighteous. Paul acknowledges this in verse 14.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Men say it would not be fair for God to be sovereign in election. Paul counters it would not be fair to God....the potter to not be able to do whatever he wants with the clay.

The problem is people (Calvin, etc) have taken election out of its Biblical context, confused it with predestination, and misapplied it to "heaven or hell"/final salvation.

Romans 9 is about God's sovereign choosing of Jacob over Esau, and of his sovereign choosing of Israel for deliverance and his choosing Pharaoh as a suitable vessel upon whom to display his judgments.

Again, nothing is said about heaven or hell, or about "choosing to believe" or not, in any of these passages. Whatever other passages may teach, these do not teach God choosing some people to believe, and others not to believe.

Furthermore, Paul himself states the conclusion of his doctrine in verses 30-33, and declares all he has said went to show that the Jews did not attain to righteousness, whereas Gentiles have, because those Jews did not seek it by faith.

Furthermore, I had previously shown that according to Paul, predestination is about Israelites being brought into the new covenant. This is proven again in chapter 9, verses 22-26, where Paul identifies the fulfillment of Hosea's prophecy concerning the northern House of Israel and their PRE ORDAINED DESTINY (predestination) to enter the new covenant.

[thephnxman]

"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing
which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great
and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be
blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his
children and his household after him, and they shall keep the
way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD
may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

God has chosen (elected) the Church IN Christ Jesus. God CHOSE
Abraham because He KNEW that Abraham would be faithful to Him.

As an aside, God also CHOSE Judas because He KNEW Judas would
betray Him. God would never have chosen a person who would be
saved to betray Him, but chose a vessel fit for destruction.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one
of you is a devil?"

[Light]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I noticed the term "predestination" is lacking in that passage. So is any reference to heaven or hell....

The word RAPTURE is not in the bible yet there will be one. The word Predestination Isn't in the verses I posted yet it's the subject matter of the posted verses.
God predetermined with hate that Esau would serve his younger brother.
God predetermined that Pharaoh would be raised up for one purpose.
God predestined Judas life and death.
God chose the ones who would be in Jesus before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he (God) hath chosen us (People) in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us (people) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, (God) according to the good pleasure of his (God) will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (people) accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we (people) have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his (God) grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us(people) in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us (people) the mystery of his (God) will, according to his (God) good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he (God) might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we (people) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his (God) own will: