The Remission is Different from Forgiveness Myth

[SDG]

In light of the agreement among Oneness powerhouse theologians, like Bernard and Segraves.... and a careful, empirical examination by any objective bible student ... regarding the word aphesis and what it signifies in the the NT ...

Such backwoods theological statements like:

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

Here we go. There was a little girl who went out to play in her brand new dress. She saw a mud puddle and thought "Why not?" and jumped right in. She got her dress filthy. Realizing the wrong she had done, she went to her father in tears of true remorse, saying "Daddy please forgive me!"(repentance). Her dad's heart melts and he says "I forgive you."(forgiveness of sin). She is forgiven and won't be punished, but her dress is still filthy and is not presentable. Her dad would still be ashamed of her in public. Her dad then washes the dress with a healthy dose of spray-n-wash(baptism), and the dress comes out sparkling clean(remission of sin). He then plants a device in the dress(Spirit) that sounds an audible and visible alarm whenever she goes near the mud again(power over sin).

Repentance= forgiveness of sin
Water Baptism in Jesus' Name= remission(washing away) of sin
Holy Spirit Baptism= power over sin

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Firstly I have never claimed to be a 3-stepper. Acts 2:38 is the only way for men to be saved since Pentecost.
However Dan is correct sins are forgiven at repentance but not remitted until they are baptized in Jesus Name. My thoughts on this is simple I am a simple person sins were forgiven in the OT but NOT remitted. Man's sins were remitted at Calvary by the blood and through baptism in Jesus Name the penitent recieves that benefit recieved by his shed blood.

Originally Posted by Ron

Jesus talks about fruit or manifestation of our faith in our repentance.
Sins are forgiven at Repentance.
Washed away or remitted in water baptism by immersion in Jesus Name.
That wonderful "New life" of the Holy Ghost is come in at Spirit Baptism.

....

Have no place in a serious debate on this topic in the ARENA OF SOUND IDEAS

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Many of my Oneness Pentecostal brethren believe who believe in 3 steps to salvation/regeneration often explain their beliefs as expressed by the following poster:

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Quote:




***News flash *****

There is no biblical distinction in the NT between the words remission and forgiveness.

These words are used interchangeably!!!

Dan in our theory and I understand the same Greek word is used so there is no argument from me there. Both are provided by the same Blood-faith. But here is an example 'filled' and baptized with the HG. Although they are used interchangably as in Acts 2:4 when the Apostles were "filled" in Acts 4 were they rebaptized in the Spirit or renewed? The same word however the distinction is clearly seen (at least by me)so is it with forgiveness and remission.

[mfblume]

Remission and forgiveness are the same Greek word. They are interchangeable, and do not mean different things. If sins are remitted, they are forgiven.

G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

[Michael The Disciple]

Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Dan in our theory and I understand the same Greek word is used so there is no argument from me there. Both are provided by the same Blood-faith. But here is an example 'filled' and baptized with the HG. Although they are used interchangably as in Acts 2:4 when the Apostles were "filled" in Acts 4 were they rebaptized in the Spirit or renewed? The same word however the distinction is clearly seen (at least by me)so is it with forgiveness and remission.

Thank you brother. Well said.
There is a contextual distinction at work here.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

Acts 8:22 KJV Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

James 5:15 KJV And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But I still believe baptism is part of salvation. Just not for the reasons some give.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Dan in our theory and I understand the same Greek word is used so there is no argument from me there. Both are provided by the same Blood-faith. But here is an example 'filled' and baptized with the HG. Although they are used interchangably as in Acts 2:4 when the Apostles were "filled" in Acts 4 were they rebaptized in the Spirit or renewed? The same word however the distinction is clearly seen (at least by me)so is it with forgiveness and remission.

You still miss it sir ... your logic does not doctrine make ...

We are to hold dear to the doctrine of the Apostles ... not your use of KJV words to fit your paradigm ... as they deal w/ the ONE word they used ...
APHESIS to mean absolute pardon as it deals w/ deliverance.

They , not you, used in their writings different words to deal w/ the baptism of the Holy Ghost ... receiving and filling ....

baptizo ... pletho ... etc.

They indeed used distinctive words ... baptism, filled, etc ... when speaking of the HG. Which brings up an entire different debate dealing w/ pneumatology ... and btw, has been discussed among theologians as to whether they mean the same thing ...

But I digress ...

You see ...the Apostles ... (and we claim to be Apostolic) made no contextual differences ... semantical differences ... or otherwise ... when writing about forgiveness/remission/sin washing/pardon.

Therefore ... your arguments dealing w/ this topic are non-Apostolic and extra-biblical .... but rather the doctrine of men.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Remission and forgiveness are the same Greek word. They are interchangeable, and do not mean different things. If sins are remitted, they are forgiven.

G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am three stepper and agree with your claim here about the definitions. Baptism does not forgive sins. Baptism is part of the church's position playing a role in taking one into the body. That is why God gave the vision to Peter to slay and eat unclean animals. Peter never would have baptized the gentiles otherwise, and God was insistent that he do it. So after the got the Holy Ghost, they had to come into the BODY of the Church.

Spirit baptism is God's seal or signature of the covenant contract, and water baptism is the person's seal or signature. Two seals are required for every contract.

Brother Blume ... I like many in Oneness Pentecost respect your mind and aspects of your theology because they are sound and seek to be bible-based.

Men like you, Bernard, Segraves cannot come to any other conclusion but what the word aphesis means and accept it's interchangeable use in scripture...

It's not what we want it to mean.

Once this true variable is accepted in a logic based argument ...

that there is no distinction biblically between forgiveness and remission because the authors did not make one ...

Then you must come to one of the following conclusions:

1. We are fully forgiven at repentance (one step view)
2. One must repent + be baptized = obtaining full forgiveness (Bernard's and Mizpeh's view)

and/or

3. Believe baptism plays a different role in in the New Birth process (Blume's view)

We, of course, disagree on our interpretations of Romans 6 which I believe is the crux of your salvational baptismal view.

[Cindy]

Daniel, I haven't read the thread nor will I do so. But I will say this. I repented of my sins in faith believing that they are forgiven by the the blood Jesus shed on calvary. Debating and arguing over words is a waste of time.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Acts 8:22 KJV Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

James 5:15 KJV And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But I still believe baptism is part of salvation. Just not for the reasons some give.

Hmmm,

This looks like a case tho where in both cases those involved were at least ones who had already believed and were baptized.

I am looking for the scripture if it exists that puts repentance as the point where a sinners sins are forgiven before water baptism. So far I have not seen it.