Inside the Mind of a Reformer

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

“You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say.”

Martin Luther

I love this quote.

So true.

[pelathais]

"The Jews are a base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth. They are full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine, and the synagogue is an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ... their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these poisonous envenomed worms should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time...we are at fault in not slaying them."

Martin Luther On the Jews and their Lies

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"The Jews are a base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth. They are full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine, and the synagogue is an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ... their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these poisonous envenomed worms should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time...we are at fault in not slaying them."

Martin Luther On the Jews and their Lies

Yes, there is that.

Pelathais, do you value his contributions, or do statements like this eliminate him from "reformer" status?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Yes, there is that.

Pelathais, do you value his contributions, or do statements like this eliminate him from "reformer" status?

Good question ... it's like asking ... do facts about Thomas Jefferson owning slaves, sleeping around w/ one of them, and not officially recognizing the children he fathered w/ Sally Hemings negate his body of work/involvement with the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Good question ... it's like asking ... does the fact of Thomas Jefferson owning slaves, sleeping around w/ one of them, and not officially recognizing the children he fathered w/ Sally Hemings negate his body of work/involvement ... i.e. the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?

Whenever I see ugly things in ministry...I am soothed by Philippians 1:18


"The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Whenever I see ugly things in ministry...I am soothed by Philippians 1:18


"The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

Great point J-Roc, Christ is our light and should be our focus, everything else is distorted and dysfunctional. This world is a screwed up place.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Yes, there is that.

Pelathais, do you value his contributions, or do statements like this eliminate him from "reformer" status?

I wouldn't presume to be the judge of which historical personages deserve what titles and epitaphs. Martin Luther had a tremendous impact for one man really was one of those who you could say "changed the world" in some way.

But personally, the man was a scoundrel; driven by his passions and anger he never seemed to become aware of the effect his words were having as time went on. The end result was the Thirty Years War, the Peasant Rebellion and and the Counter-Reformation. This was the bloodiest and most destructive era of European history, worse even than WW1 and WW2.

Let the man remain as he was in old age, besotted in his beer, nearly blind and ranting about the devil being behind every startling sound or noise he heard.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I wouldn't presume to be the judge of which historical personages deserve what titles and epitaphs. Martin Luther had a tremendous impact for one man really was one of those who you could say "changed the world" in some way.

But personally, the man was a scoundrel; driven by his passions and anger he never seemed to become aware of the effect his words were having as time went on. The end result was the Thirty Years War, the Peasant Rebellion and and the Counter-Reformation. This was the bloodiest and most destructive era of European history, worse even than WW1 and WW2.

Let the man remain as he was in old age, besotted in his beer, nearly blind and ranting about the devil being behind every startling sound or noise he heard.

Surely the effect of his words were coupled by a religious system that refused to give up it's monopoly over the lives of people in Europe.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Surely the effect of his words were coupled by a religious system that refused to give up it's monopoly over the lives of people in Europe.

"The background to Luther's 95 Theses centers on particular disputes with the Church dealing with the offering of indulgences— the granting of forgiveness - was being sold and thus the penance for sin was a commercial transaction instead of a genuine change of heart. In short, the practice of indulgences became somewhat commoditized (along with venerating holy relics) and then commercialized. So, instead of granting an indulgence as a remission of the penalty for breaking church law, making a confession, and then restoring whatever had been damaged - property or human relationships or other serious sins - an indulgence could be purchased. This was a gross violation of the original intention of confession, penance, and the role of indulgences, and contributed to what Luther felt was an offense to justification, a right relationship with God, or salvation, among Christians (there being only one church at this time) who were being falsely told that they could find absolution, that is, forgiveness of their sins, through the purchase of indulgences, rather than through the free gift of God's mercy offered in and through Jesus Christ." Online Encyclopedia

I found this quote remarkable.

Why is it that every religious system attempts to circumvent true Godliness through power, money and mental might?

Legalism is an incessantly marching mercenary.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"The Jews are a base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth. They are full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine, and the synagogue is an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ... their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these poisonous envenomed worms should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time...we are at fault in not slaying them."

Martin Luther On the Jews and their Lies

Wow....some people appear bipolar.