Was it necessary to repeal DADT?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Again, this is WAY too long for my attention span at the moment, but no matter, it's just a bunch of pointless diatribe. Can you condense your stuff, please? But.....don't tell me I 'm wrong, when you've jumped into the discussion that started strictly as a government policy dialogue. This isn't about what you believe or teach in your church. This has nothing to do with eternity or sin or anything spiritual. It's about the Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell policy of the U.S. Military. I don't need to hear your pompous theological beliefs. We already know them.

As usual, you don't rarely consider someone elses point of view, even when you do bother to READ what they post. You have pre-concieved that anyone who doesn't believe like you is a fool, ignorant, and full of pointless diatribe.

All the while you come on here and RARELY defend anything remotely christian.

I don't get it, because I genuinely like you. I read some of the things you write in blogs, and its great stuff. I love you view of outreach for people.
I don't know if the smith thing is an alter ego shock value persona, or if you really view things this way. Its like the you who I've known and read in other places, and the you on AFF (Mr. Smith) are two different persons, and IMO Mr. Smith is bi-polar.

I still like and respect you, but your completely wrong on some of these things, and while you have a right to your opinion, so I have a right to mine. And many times both of us are not right, but you seem ot form opinions more so based on pop culture and experience than the settled Word of God.

I do find it odd that while you are such a whistle-blower for unbiblical salvational teaching, you seem to allow popular opinion to influence your opinons on nearly every other issue. And when somone doesn't agree with your stance, you are quick to make a personal attack on them.

[sandie]

Jason,
I'm looking forward to your future posts. I'm learning alot. Thanks.

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

As usual, you don't rarely consider someone elses point of view, even when you do bother to READ what they post. You have pre-concieved that anyone who doesn't believe like you is a fool, ignorant, and full of pointless diatribe.

All the while you come on here and RARELY defend anything remotely christian.

I don't get it, because I genuinely like you. I read some of the things you write in blogs, and its great stuff. I love you view of outreach for people.
I don't know if the smith thing is an alter ego shock value persona, or if you really view things this way. Its like the you who I've known and read in other places, and the you on AFF (Mr. Smith) are two different persons, and IMO Mr. Smith is bi-polar.

I still like and respect you, but your completely wrong on some of these things, and while you have a right to your opinion, so I have a right to mine. And many times both of us are not right, but you seem ot form opinions more so based on pop culture and experience than the settled Word of God.

I do find it odd that while you are such a whistle-blower for unbiblical salvational teaching, you seem to allow popular opinion to influence your opinons on nearly every other issue. And when somone doesn't agree with your stance, you are quick to make a personal attack on them.

You COMPLETELY miss the point. And believe me, this is the REAL me, the me who loves people, who loves them passionately REGARDLESS of their hangup. I will fight for the civil rights of every American who experiences discrimination...ALWAYS. A person of a homosexual orientation has an absolute right to serve in the military. Period.

And until you and others start storming Washington D.C. demanding that greedy people not be allowed in the military, your bias against gays is clear.

Now, if you want to have a discussion about the sinfulness, or potential lack thereof, of homosexuality, then we can talk. We can dig into scripture and dialogue.

But as long as people are running around here scared to death of a gay person being in a military shower room...then I will continue to be disgusted at what some are saying. I can't see it any other way.

The blogger that you admire, the blogger that loves people, also loves gay people. And Jason, I love them just as much as I love you. Funny thing, Jesus also loves gay people just as much as He loves you.

And if and when you fall in your life, or fail terribly and many seek your scalp, you'll love having someone like me on your side....because I will be.

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

As usual, you don't rarely consider someone elses point of view, even when you do bother to READ what they post. You have pre-concieved that anyone who doesn't believe like you is a fool, ignorant, and full of pointless diatribe.

All the while you come on here and RARELY defend anything remotely christian.

I don't get it, because I genuinely like you. I read some of the things you write in blogs, and its great stuff. I love you view of outreach for people.
I don't know if the smith thing is an alter ego shock value persona, or if you really view things this way. Its like the you who I've known and read in other places, and the you on AFF (Mr. Smith) are two different persons, and IMO Mr. Smith is bi-polar.

I still like and respect you, but your completely wrong on some of these things, and while you have a right to your opinion, so I have a right to mine. And many times both of us are not right, but you seem ot form opinions more so based on pop culture and experience than the settled Word of God.

I do find it odd that while you are such a whistle-blower for unbiblical salvational teaching, you seem to allow popular opinion to influence your opinons on nearly every other issue. And when somone doesn't agree with your stance, you are quick to make a personal attack on them.

And as for not fighting for anything remotely Christian....there are plenty here that are doing that. I've always loved speaking up for the things few have the guts to speak out about. I'm energized by opposing all you guys. It's much more fun!

[Jason B]

Continued:

Originally Posted by DAII

It's no wonder homosexuality, a sin, like all sins, is the whipping boy of those who in one breathe speak of "limiting the role of big government" while spiritualizing politics with doom and gloom..

Get a clue Dan. The issue isn't homosexuality. Are not homosexuals free to have sex with whoever they want, as much as they want, so long as they are of age? That's not the issue. They are as free to sin as the adulterer is and the fornicator is. Have all the sex they want, with whomever they want, married or unmarried, so long as their of age.

DADT isn't about homosexuality, it is about forcing everyone else to recognize homosexuality as a LEGITIMATE life style, protected and sanctioned by the state, there is a big difference. Anyone who cannot see that the repeal of DADT will lead directly to homosexual marriage in the next generation (if not before) is being willingly ignorant.

We can't keep people from sinning, especially on the inside. But we can restrain the ability to act out those sinful urges, and each time we choose not to we go further and further away from God, and will reap the conseqences, because GOD WILL GIVE our nation up "to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient."

Where does ALL this garbage start, it start with philosphies such as your and smiths thinking you are smarter than God, you guys are puffing up your intellects, all the while tearing down the word of God. "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful ; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened . Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."


As you pointed out, pornography is legal. My question to you is HOW has that helped society? How has given liberty to perverts and those filled with lust an avenue to express their sinful desire legally HELPED our country in any way? Through internet porn, child porn, filthy magazines, pronographic movies? No all it has done is erode our society into a sex driven, lust driven society, filled with teenage pregnancies (many unwanted which end up in abortions), child molestation (because people can't find a partner to fulfill their lust on, they prey on an innocent victim), rape, homosexuality,etc.

How has legalizing abortion worked out, given women a choice? In what way have those freedoms advanced our society, by killing innocent babies by the millions? Carelessly throwing remains in garbage bags of HUMAN BEINGS?

How will we benefit if marijuana is legalized? What great civil purpose will that serve?

LEGALIZING SIN NEVER MAKES ANYTHING BETTER AND NEVER INCREASES "RIGHTS" or "EQUALITY" IT ONLY RESULTS IN MORE AND MORE UNGODLINESS.

Originally Posted by DAII

it's too easy ... and allows the legalists to thump their chests like Pharisees and spit hate rhetoric OR QUESTION ANY WHO DISAGREE WITH THEIR POSITION OF CIVIL RIGHTEOUSNESS

What hate rhetoric have I spewed omniscient dan? Who is thumping whose chest here? You are so pround of your "victories" over "apostolic papists" that you can't stand someone having a different opinion. If anyone does, then you attempt to lump them in with self righteous legalists.

You are appearently blind to my points, because over and over I've said that though I don't approve of homosexuality, I can't do anything to stop the act. Be at peace dan, homosexuality will continue, I can't stop it. What I am against is the LEGALIZATION of OPEN HOMOSEXUALITY in which all others are forced to recognize it, because the federal government has done so. We're already down that road a bit, but DADT is a big hurdle for what they ultimately want, which is marriage, and once again, at that point the dam is broken.

I'm not arguing ONLY against DADT, but against where it is taking us.

Originally Posted by DAII

No one in this thread is advocating any of these sins ... but to say that none of these people have the right to lay down their lives for their country ... is absurd ...

Agreed, and I never said that. your using a strawman argument against me so that you can "thump your chest". I'm against openly homosexual people serving in the military BECAUSE of the consequences it will have for ALL of American society through FUTURE legislation. Keep DADT in place, and problem is solved. Homosexuals can be in the military, enjoy the benefits, and give their lives if they so choose. Repeal DADT and it is simply a platform for homosexual activists to promote their agenda, why can't you see this?

Originally Posted by DAII

Squawk ... hee-haw, posture, make fallacious appeals to authority and color-code sin all you want ... you don't know any person's heart ... it's complex, hidden, wicked and perverse without Christ ...

So appeal to the Word of God is considered a "fallacious appeal to authority" ?

Dan, without all the bells and whistles, just answer this question:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

What right does a homosexual person have to flaunt their homosexuality, to have it sanctioned by the state? Based on what authority? WHAT AUTHORITY DO WE BASE THE ASSERTION THAT HOMOSEXUALS HAVE "RIGHTS" TO OPENLY PRACTICE THEIR HOMOSEXUALITY?

Furthermore, I don't claim to know anyones heart, not even my own. I hope to live a righteous life, I hope to have a clean heart, but I always pray for God to cleanse me from secret sins, and to reveal to me sin in my heart so that I may repent. DADT doesn't have anything to do with heart, it has to do with the very thing you guys say you're against "legislating morality".

By repealing DADT they are legislating morality. LIKE IT OR NOT morality is going to be legislated in one way or another.


Furthermore no one is color-coding sin. Sin seperates us from God, but the Bible is clear that sexual sins are much worse than other sins from a human perspective (1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1) and amongst the cheif of sexual sins is homosexuality.

Originally Posted by DAII

the guy showering at the gym or army barrack may be a Oneness Apostolic ... married, with kids but is a closet, struggling "bi-sexual" who may lust over the atheist Wiccan fully dressed passing through ... but so may it be ... I will not legislate over it.

Very possible, as salvation and true holiness is the product of the Spirit, not the clothes we wear and rules we obey. Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current conversation.

Originally Posted by DAII

I will preach and teach the Word and allow Him to give the increase.

Then preach what the Word says.

Originally Posted by DAII

As a Christian ... I can declare his sin is wrong ... as a libertarian I refuse to allow the puritanical or tyrannical to infringe on our civil rights.

So you propose a moral dualism. Similar to business men who are christians, who believe there are "Christian ethics" which are based on the word of God, and "business ethics" which allow for unscupulous practices, or poor treatment of people in certain (always convienient) situation? Your christian morals apply behind the pulpit, but not in your views in society?

[Hoovie]

Jason, you are correct. What this is about is incremental acceptance, and will certainly lead to more debauchery. Sick.

Many don't fear it at all, but embrace it. Legalization of homosexual marriage, defense of "How To" publications for child molesters, and yes even abortion is seen by some as civil rights protected by the constitution.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by DAII

Moreover, I find those who bellyache about Sharia law as the reason to infringe on the right for houses of worship to be built to practice their own brand of Sharia law here in our own country ... THEY ARE A REAL DANGER TO OUR BLOOD-BOUGHT FREEDOM AS WELL.

Right, Christians who desire a nation which exalts righteousness are to be feared as "the real danger." But christians who speak of for the "freedoms" of Muslims (who hate us, and promote anti-christ doctrine) to build more and more mosques, and attempt to proseyltize our children and our childrens children (so that they will be damned) are the real heros.

Originally Posted by DAII

These are the same moral people who war monger and believe we need to spend our tax dollars on more weapons of mass destruction and nuclear proliferation and shrug their shoulders and don't even wince when collateral war damage nukes 120,000 innocents in Nagasaki and Hiroshima or massacres women and children in Vietnam or Iraq or when animal tranquilizers are used to execute another human being in our own country.

Dan, I don't believe anything even remotely close to this mischaracterization. This is the strength of your argument isn't it?

For the record, I'm against war, I'm against the killing of others, and IMO the only time violence MAY be permissible is if someone is attacking an innocent person (such as an adult beating a child, or a theif breaking into a family's home at night) in self defense. To sign up to go oversees with a highly advanced weapon knowing that there is a strong possibility it will be used to kill your fellow man is a position I believe all christians should avoid.

Furthermore, and you will think this is radical, I believe that IF America, or any other country was given to righteousness that GOD would protect that nation. We see some examples of this with Israel, and see it in the prophecy in Ezekiel 38, when armies come against Israel and God uses nature (storms and great hail stones) to fight against those armies on behalf of Israel.

Unfortunately thats not happening for America, but suffice it to say, in my opinion our best self defense isn't nukes and military might, but repentance and righteousness. However, while you accuse me of being a war monger, you will probably think such a theory as God protecting us is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by DAII

Yes, your hypocrisy scares me.

My hypocrisy? Please explain, since all you have done is ascribe to me positions which I do not hold, and label which do not apply.

Originally Posted by DAII

And I don't want you to be in positions of influence and power but will not advocate you not having the right to.

No worries DAN. I'm not interested in changing the culture through government, though I'm not opposed to Christians being involved. I think the way to change the culture is to preach RIGHTEOUSNESS, preach the WORD OF GOD (as you claim to do) as it is written, and the WORD OF GOD will change peoples hearts, then these other issues would disappear.

Originally Posted by DAII

You speak of the rule of law ...

as a society we have agreed that those who break the law, i.e. murderers, tax cheats, can be incarcerated and their liberties infringed as a consequence to their actions ... yet as long as homosexuality is not a crime or against the law ... nor is idolatry ... or witchcraft ... I cannot in good conscience ... take away their CIVIL LIBERTY to serve in the military ... or shower in any designated men's or women's only area ... or equal access to our rights as American citizens.

Again I haven't said they can't serve in the military, my position is that such service should be under the umbrella of DADT.

Originally Posted by DAII

Yet, you'd trample on gays not being allowed to serve while allowing the Wiccan, atheist, fornicator, reviler with appeals to selective authority and tacit, wanton stamps of approval.

I have spoken out against these things, there is no selective authority here

Originally Posted by DAII

Your form of rule of law is demagogic, flippant and counterfeit ... those who consent to it ... the same.

This reminds me of when Israel said God's ways are unequal in Ezekiel 18.

YOU are the one who is flippant. In your speaking up for the rights of homosexuals, do you speak for the rights of women to have an abortion? Do you speak in favor of MAMBA (a homosexual group which promotes man boy "love")? Do you speak up for polygamists? For beastiliaty-after all it's their body, if they want to solicit a horse, let us not infringe on their "rights".

My standards are in line with the Word of God. God gives the liberties, not me, not you. If I am out of line, then show me with the Word of God where homosexuals have rights, and I will review my stance, but your arguments aren't basd on the Word of God, but on an ungodly society, which the Bible says "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness"

When speaking out for the things that God says are sin, you are suppressing the truth, you are taking the opposing position of God himself, and set yourself up as an authority. Professing yourself to be wise, you become a fool. Your not a fool, your a very smart poster, but you are allowing the foolish wisdom and philosphy of the age to infulence your view of scripture, which in turn is foolish.

Originally Posted by DAII

Wrought with San Hedrin AND HOMOPHOBIC thinking. (And I will say it again and again .. and again.)

Say it again and again, just like any good propaganda machine. You should join the Obama campaign, say "hope" and "change" long enough and everyone will want it, even if you fail to define it. Keep saying homophobic, scream it at the top of your lungs if you wish, throwing labels around doesn't change the argument, it is in fact a desperate debating tactic of one who knows their position is weak.

However, lets assume for a minute I am a homophobe. Lets assume I'm a great sinner, I rob banks, trip old ladies, and kick peoples dogs just because I want to. How would that affect my argument? My argument does not stand or fall on my life any more than the gospels truthfulness is effected by the immorality of some in the ministry. Again, the use of a label, in this case "Homophobic" is a very poor defense.

Originally Posted by DAII

We will agree to disagree.

And hopefully still like each other. I think your a christian, I think smith is a christian. I am baffled why you guys choose these types of things to defend. I think your in error and wrong, and to be refuted as Paul did to Peter in Galatians.

Originally Posted by DAII

I guess I too, like you, will take the moral high road.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Jason, you are correct. What this is about is incremental acceptance, and will certainly lead to more debauchery. Sick.

Many don't fear it at all, but embrace it. Legalization of homosexual marriage, defense of "How To" publications for child molesters, and yes even abortion is seen by some as civil rights protected by the constitution.

I cannot comprehend how anyone who believes the Bible can be so blind to this. The Word of God tells us not only how sinful it is, but tells us of its rapid increase..."as in the days of Lot" yet CHRISTIANS are the ones shouting "clear the way." Amazing.

And what is more amazing is how they act like this is an isolated legistlation, and as though nothing further will come from it, rather than see it for what it is, another domino falling for the homosexual agenda.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

You COMPLETELY miss the point. And believe me, this is the REAL me, the me who loves people, who loves them passionately REGARDLESS of their hangup. I will fight for the civil rights of every American who experiences discrimination...ALWAYS.

The question is what "rights" do the homosexuals have to practice open homosexuality sponsered by the state. You guys are acting like I am coming on here saying "kill the homosexuals" but spare the adulter, fornicator, greedy, etc.

I likewise will fight for civil liberties, which is why I believe that the "black man" should have every right that the "white man" has, wheather or not the black man is greedy, adulterous, or hateful. [Just as white men, and all are]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

A person of a homosexual orientation has an absolute right to serve in the military. Period.

I've never denied that, my position is that such service should continue under the DADT policy.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

And until you and others start storming Washington D.C. demanding that greedy people not be allowed in the military, your bias against gays is clear.

Another storming washington comment, do you guys all read the same book on debate or something? Do you not see the difference between greed and open approval of homosexuality?

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Now, if you want to have a discussion about the sinfulness, or potential lack thereof, of homosexuality, then we can talk. We can dig into scripture and dialogue.

This is the weird thing, you guys keep TELLING ME how SINFUL you believe homosexuality is, ya'll are essentially promoting it.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

But as long as people are running around here scared to death of a gay person being in a military shower room...then I will continue to be disgusted at what some are saying. I can't see it any other way.

Good grief, the shower issue hasn't even entered my posts. But I will be the first to say I don't want to shower with a gay person. Not everyone who showers in prison is gay. Believe me, it only takes ONE person who is homosexual for something immoral to happen.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

The blogger that you admire, the blogger that loves people, also loves gay people. And Jason, I love them just as much as I love you. Funny thing, Jesus also loves gay people just as much as He loves you.

You know what Mr. SMith, you've played this card on me before. What makes you think I don't love people? What makes you think I discriminate against gay people? I love gay people every bit as much as you, I don't love them because their gay, I love them because I know Christ loves them and died for them. I KNOW THAT GOD LOVES THEM AS MUCH AS HE LOVES ME.

I'm all for reaching out to all people. Incarcerated, homeless, abused, addicts, and even homosexuals. I'm not afraid of their sin, anymore than when I go to the county jail and preach to rapists, theives, and murderers, and there's probably some homosexuals there.

Just because I don't speak for their right to sin and the government make me approve of it, doesn't mean I don't love them.

I love your zeal for people. Please don't think or accuse me of not loving someone because I don't approve of them having free reign to practice their sin. The more sin is suppressed and considered shameful the better. They already practice homosexuality, its sin and they need repentance, they don't need us to remove the stigma from it.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

And if and when you fall in your life, or fail terribly and many seek your scalp, you'll love having someone like me on your side....because I will be.

I know you would, I have no doubt. Know that I would do the same for you.
However, like I told Dan, my affection for you guys doesn't mean I'm going to sit here quietly and promote sinful things. Paul openly refuted Peter because Peter was wrong. You guys are WRONG n this one (and a couple others ) and I will refute you, but like as Peter and Paul affectionately referred to each other as bretheren, dispite differences, so long as you guys are preaching righteousness (as you both say you do) then I see no need to de-classify you guys as christians.

Which is why I am all the more befuddled that you men, as christian men, have taken the stance you have.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

I've always loved speaking up for the things few have the guts to speak out about.

Me too. (see tithing, standards, 3 step salvation, etc)

But I think there is a danger that always taking an unpopular opinion turns into a novelty, to where ones habit is to be on the anti-establishment side of things. Sometimes it seems like thats what your doing, which is why I asked if your posting for shock value.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

I'm energized by opposing all you guys. It's much more fun!

Likewise

Iron sharpens Iron. Such discusssions here are helpful for when the topics come up in "real life".

[Fiyahstarter]

Thanks, Jason!