Why do I have to speak in tongues?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

But, like I said, one can explain away (not see!) any mistakes, if one works hard enough.

Same with choosing the negative that has no more proof than the positive. One can be negative if one works hard enough. It's a two way street when it comes to faith. Which direction will one take?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So between the two, which do you think I stand by?

Notice that when something demands FAITH, where NO PROOF is offered, and there are two options which both seem viable and one has no mroe proof than the other, there are those who choose the negative. Why is that?

Sigh. If you will notice, I said "Even if...."! But OK, you don't think that's the most likely of the two. But the other one (the mom takes charge for 10 years, if I get your meaning) doesn't hold much water, IMO. The scriptures look pretty clear:

Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began to reign

Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Same with choosing the negative that has no more proof than the positive. One can be negative if one works hard enough. It's a two way street when it comes to faith. Which direction will one take?

The one that makes the most sense?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

The one that makes the most sense?

To the natural mind, supernatural things would never make the most sense. But you have a great point. That does explain it best. However, if we are at least convinced there is a God, which makes most sense to me, then taking God and His supernatural character into consideration, it throws a whole new light on the issue.

[mfblume]

Anyway, like you said we should go to the thread you suggested. I posted the previous post over there.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Smoke and mirrors? As if.

You said that faith should not require feelings and should press on without signs. That is exactly what you spoke against in your own post about Jesus' rebuke to Thomas. No, there are no smoke and mirrors in my post, but there is some confusion in yours.

Who said anything about Thomas' feelings? He wanted to SEE, just like you want others to do about your experience.

Oh, that's right, forgive me, I forgot, YOU'RE PERFECT! Never a deceitful word from you!! Maybe you wrote the Bible! We ALL have twisted things to prove our point.

If there are, they are minor ones like dates and so on, but generally speaking, no.

I'm confused. Either yes, or no. I knew you couldn't give a strait answer. This statement says BOTH, and is why so many people don't trust our opinion. It's time to admit the truth and give people honest direction. This IS Smoke and Mirrors....Not giving a strait answer or avoiding the question by going both ways.

I think they are easily explained by culture, if they're not errors, since their culture saw the mother involved in leadership until the age of maturity arrived for the king.

At any rate, are you trying to say it was an error to read Jesus rebuking Thomas and rebuking satan. Seems like the difference of an AGE of a king, where the difference in the hebrew letters for each variant number is hardly noticeable, is quite a chasm away from a detailed description of Jesus rebuking satan!

Anyway, for you to say Jesus rebuke to satan or Thomas was a mistake, and then for you to say I use smoke and mirrors, simply makes your words fully moot in my mind.

I asked you to forget everything I said and just answer one question. Is that so hard? We'll get back to the other points when we conclude this problem you seem to want to avoid by saying yes and no.

I do not think there are errors. If there are, though, they are copyist errors of mistakening Hebrew words for 8 and 18. Check the Hebrew and notice how similar those words are. And I mean the actual Hebrew lettering.

Sticking its little ugly head up again....Smoke and Mirrors..Yes or no, are there errors in the Bible??

I am just spit-balling here, but I would say you do not want to believe the Lord rebuked Satan and Thomas as He did. It nicely gives flesh an opportunity to disbelieve.

Uh, where did I say this or conclude my belief about this to you?? You are assuming.

But, seriously. How can we discuss an issue hen we do not have a common baseline of bible to discuss. You claim there are errors in the bible. that seemingly makes you think youTcan dispose of entire stories in the bible. Well, what about the passages and stories you do agree are true? How do you know they are true?

Did I claim it, or prove it?? You are not making sense, Brother.

Talk about smoke and mirrors

Ok, there is so much smoke in this post, I need a breath of fresh air!!

[mfblume]

Notforsale,

I cannot forget what you said about denying Jesus' words spoken to satan about tempting God as recorded in the bible. Sorry.

And I never said there were errors in the bible. I do not believe there are. I said IF there are, they would not even be the extreme kind you espouse as though entire conversations were not genuine. But I do not even believe the instances of the years were errors. There's explanations for each of them.

And we have continued this on the other thread that Timmy suggested that is entitled Objections to the Bible.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=21086

But so long as you deny Christ told Satan what we read He did, I will keep that in mind as we discuss. We're on two totally different bases and foundations in this chat so I doubt we can discuss much except those bases.

BTW, does your username NotForSale signify a response to the Word of the Bible that state He bought us with the precious blood of Christ?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sam

There have been instances of people understanding what was being said by a person who was speaking in tongues even though the person speaking did not know what he was saying. Over the years I've heard several instances of that. I would imagine some of them have been embellished and maybe some of them are urban legends.

I remember a man named Louis who had been in the military and stationed in Japan after World War 2 telling me something he had actually heard. He had learned a few words of Japanese, simple stuff like counting and some other simple phrases. He was in a church service one time and someone gave a brief message in tongues. He started off by counting from 1 to 10 in Japanese and Lewis wondered, "What's this?" The person continued speaking what Louis recognized to be Japanese but did not understand what was being said. Then the interpretation was given that in ten days, something was going to happen. Louis didn't know if anything actually happened in 10 days but he did recognize the counting from 1 to 10 in Japanese.

I read some time ago about an instance that Jack Hayford related. He was on an airplane on his way home from Portland, Oregon and in conversation the person next to him said that he was raised on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma, that his mother was Kiowa and he did not speak English until he started school. Jack Haybordfelt impressed to speak to person next to him in tongues. He hesitated but the impression would not go away. Finally, just before they departed the plane he told the person that he had heard something and wondered if maybe it meant something to him. The man agreed and Jack Hayford uttered a few phrases in tongues in a conversational tone. The man said, "That's a pre-Kiowan language from which our Kiowa Indian tongue came." He continued, "I don't know all the words you spoke, but I do know the idea they express." He went on, "It's something about the light that's coming down from above."

Several years ago I read a book titled, "Experiencing the Spirit" by Robert Heidler who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary with a Th.M. in New Testament Literature and Exegisis. I have actually read this book more than once, have recommended it to others, and have given away several copies. This book plus "They Speak With Other Tongues" by John Sherrill are two that I recommend to anyone who wants to know more about the Holy Ghost Baptism and speaking with tongues. Robert Heidler was a pastor and a teacher who did not believe in speaking with tongues or that any of the other gifts of the Spirit were available today. He and his wife later both received the HGB and the book is about their experiences. in 1993 when he was in Moscow and was invited to speak in a church. He had developed a friendship with the pastor and his wife. Their names were Kostya and Helena. The pastor could not speak English but his wife did and had spent a year in England at a Bible School. As the service began, the pastor stepped to the microphone and began to pray in English with no trace of an accent, "Holy Spirit of God, we welcome you here today..." and continued on. Robert Heidler was amazed. Afterward he spoke to Helena and said, "I thought Kostya didn't know English. He was praying in perfect English during the Church service." She smiled and said, "Oh! He doesn't know English. That's his prayer language. He didn't understand anything he said!" She went on to explain that when she and Kostya were dating, she would always know what was on his heart since, when they prayed together, he would pray in "tongues" in English and she, knowing English, could understand everything he was praying!

This is from pages 103 and 104 of “Charisma Vs. Charismania by Chuck Smith, copyright 1992


Several years ago, when Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa was quite small, we were meeting on Sunday nights in a clubhouse. On a particular Sunday evening (which was Pentecost Sunday), at the close of the lesson as we were softly worshipping God together, I asked one of the ladies in the fellowship if she would worship God in the Spirit, since I knew that when she spoke in tongues she usually spoke in French. As she began to worship God, I could understand enough of her French to know that she was thanking God for her new life in Christ and the beautiful new song of love He had given her. I thought this was especially beautiful, as she used to be a nightclub singer prior to her conversion. At the conclusion of her worship in the Spirit, my wife began to give the interpretation to the group, and knowing that she does not know French, I was particularly blessed to hear how accurately the worship with the Spirit was being interpreted for the fellowship.

After the meeting one of the young men in the fellowship brought a Jewish girl from Palm Springs for counseling. When we sat down together, she said, “Before we get to my problems, explain to me what was happening here tonight. Why did the one lady speak to God in French, and the other lady translate to the group what she said?” I said, “Would you believe that neither of those ladies knows French?” I told her that I knew for a fact that neither knewFrench, since one of them was a close friend and the other was my wife. I then showed her in 1 Corinthians where it speaks of the gift of tongues and interpretation. She then told me that she had lived in France for six years, and that the French spoken was in the perfect accent of what she called the Aristocratic French. She also stated that the translation was perfect. She then said, “I must accept Jesus Christ now, before we go any further.”

It was my joy to see her find her Messiah and become a member of the body of Christ. There was a demonstration of the gift of tongues, followed by the true interpretation, which was glorious praise and worship of God. The result was the edifying of the body and in this case the conversion of this Jewish girl.

[JoeHardy07]

Originally Posted by Sam

This is from pages 103 and 104 of “Charisma Vs. Charismania by Chuck Smith, copyright 1992


Several years ago, when Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa was quite small, we were meeting on Sunday nights in a clubhouse. On a particular Sunday evening (which was Pentecost Sunday), at the close of the lesson as we were softly worshipping God together, I asked one of the ladies in the fellowship if she would worship God in the Spirit, since I knew that when she spoke in tongues she usually spoke in French. As she began to worship God, I could understand enough of her French to know that she was thanking God for her new life in Christ and the beautiful new song of love He had given her. I thought this was especially beautiful, as she used to be a nightclub singer prior to her conversion. At the conclusion of her worship in the Spirit, my wife began to give the interpretation to the group, and knowing that she does not know French, I was particularly blessed to hear how accurately the worship with the Spirit was being interpreted for the fellowship.

After the meeting one of the young men in the fellowship brought a Jewish girl from Palm Springs for counseling. When we sat down together, she said, “Before we get to my problems, explain to me what was happening here tonight. Why did the one lady speak to God in French, and the other lady translate to the group what she said?” I said, “Would you believe that neither of those ladies knows French?” I told her that I knew for a fact that neither knewFrench, since one of them was a close friend and the other was my wife. I then showed her in 1 Corinthians where it speaks of the gift of tongues and interpretation. She then told me that she had lived in France for six years, and that the French spoken was in the perfect accent of what she called the Aristocratic French. She also stated that the translation was perfect. She then said, “I must accept Jesus Christ now, before we go any further.”

It was my joy to see her find her Messiah and become a member of the body of Christ. There was a demonstration of the gift of tongues, followed by the true interpretation, which was glorious praise and worship of God. The result was the edifying of the body and in this case the conversion of this Jewish girl.

Wow! Now THAT lines up with scripture - tongues spoken in praise to God and interpreted to the benefit of the unbeliever! Hmmm....just like it reads in 1 Cor. 14 and JUST LIKE in Acts chapter two. Nope, no heavenly language. Just an interpretation of praise spoken in FRENCH and a young woman was turned to Jesus! I'd have to say that was TRUE Holy Ghost tongues right there! Notice the one saved was not the one speaking in tongues, but the one HEARING! Acts chapter 2! If we are used by, filled with, overtaken by, or however you wanna put it, by the Holy Ghost; it is for ANOTHER'S!!! benefit! And that don't mean eventually neither! Ha ha ha! Woohooo!!!!!