There is a potentially true (and IMO most likely true), very logical answer to all this. It doesn't suffer from contradiction. It usually doesn't cause false hope in anyone, which often leads to despair, guilt, and confusion -- even suicide sometimes. It doesn't require atheism. It can be compatible with forms of Christianity (but will have a lot of trouble co-existing with Pentecostalism -- sorry. ).
The potentially true answer is this: God never intervenes. Ever. He doesn't stop anyone from doing anything. He doesn't help (actively) anyone get through difficulties. He doesn't speak to anyone, neither audibly nor with a still small voice. He doesn't heal (actively).
If this is correct, then there are other explanations for all the claims to the contrary.
Still small voices are easy to explain: we have brains. They work in mysterious ways. They can process data when we don't even know it, and we may not even know we have the data: we don't always consciously perceive things, but they're perceived, just the same. The background process can suddenly come up with surprisingly accurate answers, and just when they are needed. But, if you like, God can get the credit for this. It's His design at work!
Audible voices? Visions? Steering wheels moving on their own? Well, our minds work too hard, sometimes!
Miracles are almost always easy to explain, too. Some of us want miracles to happen, to be true, so badly, that we're ready to claim them for just about anything. You know this is really true for some people! Oh thank you Jesus for that parking place! Sometimes, our minds work overtime trying to see miracles. And they're not all as trivial as a parking place. People are healed of cancer, quite often, without miraculous intervention. People's hearts stop, and start up again. And there is sometimes a Dr. Crandall who "hears" voices telling him to pray, and sometimes to shock him one more time. It's impressive, but it doesn't have to be God's active intervention. Now, if I ever witness an arm growing back before my eyes, I'll post an update to my viewpoints.
What about help getting through hard times? Recovery from a trauma, such as abuse or rape? Well, again, God's amazing design kicks in. We are a resilient race. With the right inspiration, we can "get through" a lot. The inspiration may be prayer and faith. Sadly, that doesn't always work. Some people can't get through, and they live the rest of their lives in defeat, and some even end their own lives. Now, IMO, it does not (always) help to give people false hope, claiming that God will, if you have enough faith in Him, actually and intentionally step in and do something for them -- heal their minds or their bodies, make a way, etc. Especially when this advice is all that's offered, and it doesn't work, the person is worse off than before. Real, tangible help from you might help much more (and yes, I know that many of you do this, which is awesome!): maybe some money (if appropriate), help with house work, advice, or even just being there for them. Listening, caring, crying with them. Even that doesn't always work, I admit, but when it doesn't, it's not likely to make anyone wonder why God doesn't love them, or feel guilt and despair for not having enough faith.
It's been said that God's hands are our hands. We can work "miracles", whenever we lend a hand, without expecting anything in return -- when we obey Jesus' command to love our neighbor as ourselves.
(To be continued. I think. )
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
There is a potentially true (and IMO most likely true), very logical answer to all this. It doesn't suffer from contradiction. It usually doesn't cause false hope in anyone, which often leads to despair, guilt, and confusion -- even suicide sometimes. It doesn't require atheism. It can be compatible with forms of Christianity (but will have a lot of trouble co-existing with Pentecostalism -- sorry. ).
The potentially true answer is this: God never intervenes. Ever. He doesn't stop anyone from doing anything. He doesn't help (actively) anyone get through difficulties. He doesn't speak to anyone, neither audibly nor with a still small voice. He doesn't heal (actively).
If this is correct, then there are other explanations for all the claims to the contrary.
Still small voices are easy to explain: we have brains. They work in mysterious ways. They can process data when we don't even know it, and we may not even know we have the data: we don't always consciously perceive things, but they're perceived, just the same. The background process can suddenly come up with surprisingly accurate answers, and just when they are needed. But, if you like, God can get the credit for this. It's His design at work!
Audible voices? Visions? Steering wheels moving on their own? Well, our minds work too hard, sometimes!
Miracles are almost always easy to explain, too. Some of us want miracles to happen, to be true, so badly, that we're ready to claim them for just about anything. You know this is really true for some people! Oh thank you Jesus for that parking place! Sometimes, our minds work overtime trying to see miracles. And they're not all as trivial as a parking place. People are healed of cancer, quite often, without miraculous intervention. People's hearts stop, and start up again. And there is sometimes a Dr. Crandall who "hears" voices telling him to pray, and sometimes to shock him one more time. It's impressive, but it doesn't have to be God's active intervention. Now, if I ever witness an arm growing back before my eyes, I'll post an update to my viewpoints.
What about help getting through hard times? Recovery from a trauma, such as abuse or rape? Well, again, God's amazing design kicks in. We are a resilient race. With the right inspiration, we can "get through" a lot. The inspiration may be prayer and faith. Sadly, that doesn't always work. Some people can't get through, and they live the rest of their lives in defeat, and some even end their own lives. Now, IMO, it does not (always) help to give people false hope, claiming that God will, if you have enough faith in Him, actually and intentionally step in and do something for them -- heal their minds or their bodies, make a way, etc. Especially when this advice is all that's offered, and it doesn't work, the person is worse off than before. Real, tangible help from you might help much more (and yes, I know that many of you do this, which is awesome!): maybe some money (if appropriate), help with house work, advice, or even just being there for them. Listening, caring, crying with them. Even that doesn't always work, I admit, but when it doesn't, it's not likely to make anyone wonder why God doesn't love them, or feel guilt and despair for not having enough faith.
It's been said that God's hands are our hands. We can work "miracles", whenever we lend a hand, without expecting anything in return -- when we obey Jesus' command to love our neighbor as ourselves.
(To be continued. I think. )
You talk too much sometimes.
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Timmy,
thanks for being so "real" in your post and for not just parroting the "pentecostal party line."
Or any party line.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
I know you mean well with this, but it really doesn't help make sense in the discussion that's taking place.
First, Elihu was speaking about what he thought should happen to Job and we clearly see in the final chapters of this book, that it didn't happen. In effect, he was saying, "This is what Job deserves, but God isn't like that."
Second, this passage from Isaiah is one of, if not the most, misapplied passages in the bible. Before Isaiah spoke the words you posted above, he spoke of the people on which God would show His mercy. Some believe this was a reference to the Gentiles, that God would unload His grace on whomever he liked.....and Isaiah followed that statement with the famous, "For my ways are not your ways......" etc. In other words, "I'll save whoever I want to save." Isaiah was NOT trying to explain all the operations of God and His sovereignty. He wasn't saying, "God does what He wants, don't question it."
I believe it's lazy exegesis to throw, "God's thoughts aren't yours" in an attempt to apply reason to something that is unreasonable.
Sorry, Troublemaker, you couldn't see/understand what I was saying. No
doubt it had to do with us being "worlds" apart!
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
There is a potentially true (and IMO most likely true), very logical answer to all this. It doesn't suffer from contradiction. It usually doesn't cause false hope in anyone, which often leads to despair, guilt, and confusion -- even suicide sometimes. It doesn't require atheism. It can be compatible with forms of Christianity (but will have a lot of trouble co-existing with Pentecostalism -- sorry. ).
The potentially true answer is this: God never intervenes. Ever. He doesn't stop anyone from doing anything. He doesn't help (actively) anyone get through difficulties. He doesn't speak to anyone, neither audibly nor with a still small voice. He doesn't heal (actively).
If this is correct, then there are other explanations for all the claims to the contrary.
Still small voices are easy to explain: we have brains. They work in mysterious ways. They can process data when we don't even know it, and we may not even know we have the data: we don't always consciously perceive things, but they're perceived, just the same. The background process can suddenly come up with surprisingly accurate answers, and just when they are needed. But, if you like, God can get the credit for this. It's His design at work!
Audible voices? Visions? Steering wheels moving on their own? Well, our minds work too hard, sometimes!
Miracles are almost always easy to explain, too. Some of us want miracles to happen, to be true, so badly, that we're ready to claim them for just about anything. You know this is really true for some people! Oh thank you Jesus for that parking place! Sometimes, our minds work overtime trying to see miracles. And they're not all as trivial as a parking place. People are healed of cancer, quite often, without miraculous intervention. People's hearts stop, and start up again. And there is sometimes a Dr. Crandall who "hears" voices telling him to pray, and sometimes to shock him one more time. It's impressive, but it doesn't have to be God's active intervention. Now, if I ever witness an arm growing back before my eyes, I'll post an update to my viewpoints.
What about help getting through hard times? Recovery from a trauma, such as abuse or rape? Well, again, God's amazing design kicks in. We are a resilient race. With the right inspiration, we can "get through" a lot. The inspiration may be prayer and faith. Sadly, that doesn't always work. Some people can't get through, and they live the rest of their lives in defeat, and some even end their own lives. Now, IMO, it does not (always) help to give people false hope, claiming that God will, if you have enough faith in Him, actually and intentionally step in and do something for them -- heal their minds or their bodies, make a way, etc. Especially when this advice is all that's offered, and it doesn't work, the person is worse off than before. Real, tangible help from you might help much more (and yes, I know that many of you do this, which is awesome!): maybe some money (if appropriate), help with house work, advice, or even just being there for them. Listening, caring, crying with them. Even that doesn't always work, I admit, but when it doesn't, it's not likely to make anyone wonder why God doesn't love them, or feel guilt and despair for not having enough faith.
It's been said that God's hands are our hands. We can work "miracles", whenever we lend a hand, without expecting anything in return -- when we obey Jesus' command to love our neighbor as ourselves.
(To be continued. I think. )
Well said, well written, and well-explained. Question: What form of Christianity would this be agreeable to?
I think I'm willing to consider some of what you're saying, maybe even a lot, but I find it impossible to abandon certain experiences I've had. However, I'll hear someone talk about, with just as much vigor as I have, an experience they had and their story is completely looney. So I understand if my experiences, some of which I've shared with you, don't add up to you.
And I absolutely agree with your last paragraph and, in fact, it's biblical.
Well said, well written, and well-explained. Question: What form of Christianity would this be agreeable to?
I think I'm willing to consider some of what you're saying, maybe even a lot, but I find it impossible to abandon certain experiences I've had. However, I'll hear someone talk about, with just as much vigor as I have, an experience they had and their story is completely looney. So I understand if my experiences, some of which I've shared with you, don't add up to you.
And I absolutely agree with your last paragraph and, in fact, it's biblical.
Deism is an interesting concept, one I've considered but can't quite buy. Like you, I can't abandon certain experiences I've had in spite of how crazy they sound when I really get to thinking about them.
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You become free from who you have become, by becoming who you were meant to be. ~Mark from another forum I post on
God did it for us. Out of sheer generosity he put us in right standing with himself. A pure gift. He got us out of the mess we're in and restored us to where he always wanted us to be. And he did it by means of Jesus Christ. ~Romans 3:24 from The Message
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