Different God?

[TheLayman]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

TLM,

I know you're busy but I wanted to make one comment in response to your post.

Jesus said "we know" concerning the knowledge of God that the Jews and He himself had. He didn't say "I know" what I worship. Jesus didn't try to explain a progressive revelation of God (the Trinity) to the woman at the well nor did he tell her that his Jewish brethren were not complete in their knowledge of God. He didn't bring into question whatsoever their current understanding of God.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Here is another opportunity for Jesus to reveal the Trinity and bring his brethren into a more perfect knowledge of God but he did not. What Jesus doesn't say speaks very loudly to me.

Hello Mizpeh:

You reading things into what you believe someone doesn't do instead of carefully interpreting the things they do say or do is going to lead you down many wrong roads.

I did not say this was about the Trinity, in fact I said just the opposite. Mizpeh, the Samaritans rejected all of the old testament except the Pentateuch, they rejected the Psalms and Prophets and so forth: therefore they did not know what they worshipped (they were literally ignorant). The Jews had to that point in time the whole of revelation: therefore they were not lacking and were not ignorant (that is theoretically, not necessarily pratically). And in this I'm talking about progressive revelation Mizpeh. The Law of Moses, the Pentateuch is what the Samaritans accepted while rejecting the rest of the OT and if there is no progressive revelation, that should be all the needed. But Jesus immediately identified this void in knowledge on the part of the Samaritans (if you understand the cultural context to what is going on and being said). Since we are on this topic keep in mind what this idiom means as you read the NT, the Law and the Prophets:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Even so, Jesus says, temple worship will end and people would no longer travel to Jerusalem for certain festivals (I believe the Samaritans had also built at least one temple to worship in but it was destroyed by Jews a hundred plus years before). The levitical Priesthood would end, sacrifices would end, and so on. Temple, priestly, legalistic, liturgical worship would end. The place and the way of worship was going to change because salvation was of the Jews. Salvation was sitting in front of her, Jesus was a Jew, and Jesus was salvation.

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect . I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

At any rate Mizpeh, my point was that this passage is not about the "nature of God." I'm wondering what God you think the Samaritans worshipped having the Pentateuch as opposed to what God the Jews worshipped having the whole of OT revelation. Amazing that the Samaritain woman recognized Jesus as Savior after one short conversation when the spiritual leaders of Israel didn't, even after all the Messianic miracles. As I said, believe what you like. My comments where offered as information and something to chew on, there's really nothing to debate here.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by TheLayman

Mizpeh:

Just a quick note. John 4:22 has nothing to do with the nature of God. Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan and their is a history between the Jews and the Samaritans (there is bad blood between them). Perhaps you know that not only was it amazing that Jesus was talking to a woman, but it was a Samaritan woman, and to drink from their utensil was to become unclean according to the law (legalism) of the elders. If you understand something about the Samaritans it will truly amplify the story of the good Samaritan. Rather than me write about that, any decent Bible dictionary or encyclopedia will be able to give you some information on that.

The fact I want to emphasize is that the Samaritans only used the Pentateuch (the rejected the prophets and all else) and this mixed with very great idolatry. So, Jesus was making reference to their ignorance. They worshipped in ignorance, the Jews did not. This is why the Jews, especially their spiritual leaders should have known Jesus was the Messiah. Obviously we know the end of that particular story, they had the Son of God crucified, so don't be to quick to read into John 4:22 that the Jews knew in the sense that I think you are using it.

Not that the Son of God did not try to reveal the truth to them, a truth which did not conflict with the OT and certainly not with their theological questions and mysteries. Apparently the spiritual leaders decided to stop believing in the progressive revelation of God and instead chose their own traditions and rejection of Christ. Just something to think about, I don't really have a great deal of time to become deeply involved in more discussions.

Blessings,
TheLayman

I don't see how the above means "we know what we worship" does not cover the nature of God. It seems that we are assuming for the sake of argument here, that Jews did not believe the nature of God does not include a tripersonal deity. If that is the case and the Jews were really clueless, this statement by Jesus would seem rather wrong, despite having ALL of the word of God and not just the first 5 books

In fact the topic is worship and not HOW to worship but What "we" worship and in the context the topic is WHO...the Father. The Father is seeking people who will worship HIM.

In fact Jesus ties what the woman said to true worship, which was worship of the Father.

Jesus didn't say "We know where we worship" or "We know how to worship", but we know WHAT we worship and in the context Jesus is speaking of the Father. One might wonder why he did not include the other two persons of the Trinity, especially if Jews did believe in the Trinity and especially if they did NOT and needed to be corrected on the nature of God and true worship.

Because they did not have the rest of the Torah their knowledge of God was limited. I don't see how that can't refer to nature.

Let's even change the presumption. Let's assume the Jews did believe God was tri-personal, certainly if such was the case an argument might be made that such a revelation is taught in the rest of the torah as we have often heard Trinitarians claim that the Trinity can be found in the OT in the prophets such as Isaiah.

If one wants to know about God, including the nature of how He exists, would not one want to have ALL the word? I guess I just don't see how this excludes How He exists, while I can see how it would include OTHER topics relating to God besides how He exists

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't see how the above means "we know what we worship" does not cover the nature of God. It seems that we are assuming for the sake of argument here, that Jews did not believe the nature of God does not include a tripersonal deity. If that is the case and the Jews were really clueless, this statement by Jesus would seem rather wrong, despite having ALL of the word of God and not just the first 5 books

In fact the topic is worship and not HOW to worship but What "we" worship and in the context the topic is WHO...the Father. The Father is seeking people who will worship HIM.

In fact Jesus ties what the woman said to true worship, which was worship of the Father.

Jesus didn't say "We know where we worship" or "We know how to worship", but we know WHAT we worship and in the context Jesus is speaking of the Father. One might wonder why he did not include the other two persons of the Trinity, especially if Jews did believe in the Trinity and especially if they did NOT and needed to be corrected on the nature of God and true worship.

Because they did not have the rest of the Torah their knowledge of God was limited. I don't see how that can't refer to nature.

Let's even change the presumption. Let's assume the Jews did believe God was tri-personal, certainly if such was the case an argument might be made that such a revelation is taught in the rest of the torah as we have often heard Trinitarians claim that the Trinity can be found in the OT in the prophets such as Isaiah.

If one wants to know about God, including the nature of how He exists, would not one want to have ALL the word? I guess I just don't see how this excludes How He exists, while I can see how it would include OTHER topics relating to God besides how He exists

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I think the gist of "we know What we worship" was elaborated on by Jesus when He explained to the Samaritan woman "What" God is. God is a Spirit. The topics Jesus was speaking of were worship and God's nature. Perhaps the woman was worshipping God in ignorance with an incomplete knowledge base but Jesus and the Jews knew who and what they worshipped. Jesus took the time to explain what God was, the truth of who God is, to the woman and also how God wanted to be worshipped.

Jesus reiterates that worship is to the Father who is God. He repeats himself with different wording, much like the parallelism used in Hebrew OT scriptures.

If worship is to the Father, then once again our understanding of who God is affects our worship of Him. For Trinitarians, Jesus is telling them to worship only one person of the Trinity thus leaving out the other two, but for Oneness, when we worship the Father we also worship the Son and the Spirit since these are different manifestations of the same God, the Father.

Oneness and Trinitarians truly do worship and pray with a different mindset of who and what God is. How important is it to God to be worshipped in spirit and in truth?

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Is the God of Trinitarians a different One from the Oneness adherants?

Yes, Trinitarianism teaches that God is and eternally has existed as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, whilst Oneness like Unitarianism, Christadelphianism and the Watchtower teaches that the Father alone is God and the Son is a part of the creation! JW's call the Father God, whilst Oneness Pentecostals call the Father ... Jesus but both only ascribe divien attributes to the Father alone, the only substantial differences is that Oneness (like Trinitarianism) correctrly teaches that the Father indwells the Son. When you understand that the JWs call the Father ... Jehovah but Oneness folk call him Jesus, you've then got in a nutshell the main difference between the Watchtower and Oneness.

[sola gratia]

A) There are some real differences between oneness and trinitarianism
B) They do not worship different Gods. but do understand God differently
C) Some of this is semantics, some of it is not
D) the salvation message is very different.

That being said. How can one determine that understanding God correctly is salvational? Since we dont have anything to back that up scripturally!

How can it be said that one group is lost, when few really even understand the Godhead anyway?

How can it be said that either view is totally correct when the bible has difficult passaged that stump both viewpoints?

The greater sin here is not some groups understanding God correctly, it is their insistence on disssention that will be the sin

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

Yes, Trinitarianism teaches that God is and eternally has existed as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, whilst Oneness like Unitarianism, Christadelphianism and the Watchtower teaches that the Father alone is God and the Son is a part of the creation! JW's call the Father God, whilst Oneness Pentecostals call the Father ... Jesus but both only ascribe divien attributes to the Father alone, the only substantial differences is that Oneness (like Trinitarianism) correctrly teaches that the Father indwells the Son. When you understand that the JWs call the Father ... Jehovah but Oneness folk call him Jesus, you've then got in a nutshell the main difference between the Watchtower and Oneness.

OPs are mostly NOTHING like Unitarians or Christadelphians or JWs..

In fact if you really want to be ignorant about it...JWs believe in a Son that existed BEFORE Creation...like you do....JWs believe the Son is someone OTHER than the Father....like YOU DO. In fact so do Unitarians and Christadelphians and Mormons.

As a Oneness Pentecostal, the Son is NOT just a part of creation. The Son was born, not created...that's a false argument meant to tie OPs in with Arianism.

The Son is God HIMSELF with Deity and Humanity united together..

JWs say the Son is Michael become a man and OPs say the Son is Jehovah become a man, BIG difference

[Scott Hutchinson]

JWs teach the Son is a created being by Jehovah ,that is a vast difference in that than teaching that Jesus Christ was the only begotten or only unique Son Of God.

[Praxeas]

Hey, stop trying to make sense....you don't want to disturb Don Quixote as he valiantly battles imaginary enemies

[Scott Hutchinson]

God became a Son ,through the virgin birth ,yet His divinity didn't cease either.
Only begotten Son Of God = God manifest in flesh.
If God manifested Himself in human flesh then there can only be One True God.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Prax ,I fail compared to you ,but I try my best to defend foundational truth.