If You Are A Disciple

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Where are you going to find Reubenites, Simeonites, Levites, Judeans, Issacharians, Zebulunites, Danites, Naphtalians, Gadites, Asherites, Benjaminites, Josephites, Ephraimites and, Manassehites? Don't give me the baloney that God knows who these people are, and will surprise everyone in another 2,000 years when there is a rapture. The bottom line is that God made sure that His people kept track of their genealogical lineages throughout their history. Yet today in 2021 you couldn't find not one human who can trace their lineage back to a Judean, let alone a Zebulunite, Reubenite, or Levite. Sorry pal, but there is only one, one, one, one way to God, baptized in Jesus name.

No other way in, certainly not by race. It is all through Grace.

Trans-Hebraism will solve all your tribe identity problems.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The 144,000 aren't "Jews". They are of all 12 tribes (including 12,000 of the tribe of Judah). See? You don't even have the most rudimentary basics down yet here you are claiming to interpret Revelation for us.

Jesus warned THE CHURCHES about a people calling themselves "Jews" but who in reality AREN'T JUDEANS. The claim is made that THEY are the "chosen ones", the BELOVED OF GOD, and YET Christ says He will force them to acknowledge that He loves THE CHURCH. In other words, in the NT book of PROPHECY, we are TWICE WARNED about a group of IMPOSTERS PRETENDING TO BE JUDEANS CALLING THEMSELVES "JEWS" BUT WHO ARE LIARS AND ARE ACTUALLY OF THE DEVIL.

The 144,000 are NOT JEWS:

Revelation 7:2-4 KJV
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

They are the SEALED SERVANTS OF GOD IE C H R I S T I A N S. They are CHRISTIANS, not "Jews".

Would these be part of the True Israel of God?
Is it talking about Jews that converted to Christianity in the first century?


https://postmillennialworldview.com/...re-the-144000/

[Amanah]

The 144,000, comprising representatives from both the house of Judah and the house of Israel (gentiles), symbolizes the reunification and unity of God's people under the new covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-13 quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34, highlighting the new covenant's characteristics:

Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The 144,000, representing all 12 tribes, demonstrates:

1. Unity: Judah and Israel reunited.
2. Completeness: 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 gates (Revelation 21:12, 14).
3. Universality: Gentiles included (Ephesians 2:11-22).

This symbolism reinforces:

1. Christ's role as mediator of the new covenant (Hebrews 8:6).
2. The Church as the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).
3. God's plan to unite all believers under one covenant (Ephesians 2:14-22).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Would these be part of the True Israel of God?
Is it talking about Jews that converted to Christianity in the first century?

It is not talking about "Jews" who converted in the 1st century, except for those of the tribe of Judah). It IS however talking about all 12 tribes of Israel being servants of the Messiah (ie they are Christian). They are the Israel of God, they are the "true" Israel of God because there is no other Israel of God, the "Israel" in the middle east is "Israel" in name only. Those people might as well be Mormons from the lost Wannabee tribes.

https://postmillennialworldview.com/...re-the-144000/

I'll check out the link in a moment.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'll check out the link in a moment.

Okay, checked it out. He's wrong on numerous points:

1. He fails to recognise that these are twelve tribes, not "Jews".

2. He treats John as if John "drew on" the symbolism of Ezekiel, when in fact John was SHOWN what he saw by Jesus. Revelation is not a "coded cipher whose author used OT imagery to make a point" but is a REVELATION (apocalypse, a series of visions) given by God to Jesus who then showed it to John. Yes OT imagery is used because that is GOD'S imagery and method of communication, not because John crawled through the OT and decided to use this, that, or the other thing to encode his doctrine.

3. He asserts everything revolves around the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and so makes the same mistake dispensationalists make - everything is about "the Jews", good, bad, or ugly.

This is the problem with most modern (and a lot of older) prophecy expositors and teachers - they make the House of Israel disappear into the void and replace it with "the Jews", which is exactly what "the Jews" have been working towards for some time. Judaism is the ultimate replacement theology. There is a reason Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 are in our Bibles, along with tons of other passages that identify Israel in Bible history and prophecy. Failure to understand that the main point of prophecy is about God through Christ redeeming ISRAEL (all 12 tribes) so they can be the vessel through which He converts all the nations of the earth is what leads to all kinds of errors and missing the mark in studying prophecy.

Abraham was to be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. Jacob was to father multiple nations. The single half-tribe of Ephraim all by itself was to become a multitude of nations. These nations were prophesied to explore, colonise, and basically control the world and its wealth, recognise the Messiah, and spread the knowledge of Christ to every corner of the globe (!)...So where are these multiple multitudes of Israelite nations?

They certainly aren't stuck over in Palestine and Brooklyn.

[shag]

Does the argument basically boil down to, if hes speaking of physical descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel versus the true(Spiritual) Israel, which is body of Christ?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Does the argument basically boil down to, if hes speaking of physical descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel versus the true(Spiritual) Israel, which is body of Christ?

I would say it boils down to whether he's speaking of the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel in general vs the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel who have entered the new covenant, who are the body of Christ.

Too many people cling to the idea that the church is somehow a distinct entity from Israel, that on the one hand you have Israel (the people descended from Jacob, all 12 tribes) and on the other hand you have this thing called "the church". The church is Israel (all 12 tribes) who have entered the new covenant, those of the 12 tribes who are not in the new covenant are not considered Israel because whoever does not follow Christ is "cut off", the "gentiles" (nations) being talked about in the New Testament are primarily Israelites. I say "primarily" because the Bible definitely does also include all the other non-Israelite nations as targets for the Gospel, since that is ultimately God's Plan - to have the entire world know Him. Abraham's descendants were to be a blessing to ALL families of the earth. This is fulfilled by Israel receiving the Messiah and taking the Gospel to ALL families and nations and tongues and kindreds etc.