The problem with the UPCI

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But there was a time when folks weren't leaving, at least not noticeably.

What changed?

Who's leaving? And who is in charge?

Obviously, the one's leaving don't like the one's in charge, I would guess...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Who's leaving? And who is in charge?

Obviously, the one's leaving don't like the one's in charge, I would guess...

Many were forced to leave after the "Loyalty Oath" and the direction to change the organization both in official bylaws/statements and the demographics (putting pressure on people to change or leave)

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Many were forced to leave after the "Loyalty Oath" and the direction to change the organization both in official bylaws/statements and the demographics (putting pressure on people to change or leave)

I understand the argument that people were "forced to leave" because of the AS.....I cannot agree however. When people signed their applications they covenanted themselves to abide by the governing document (the manual) of the organization. They knew what they were agreeing to believe, teach, and practice. All the AS did was make them accountable for what they had already covenanted to do.

I have stated many times that I actually had great respect for the men (even if I disagreed with their beliefs) who said I cannot sign a lie nor violate my conscious. However, the reality is that they (and all of those who continue to sign knowing they do NOT believe) were lying anyway. They signed an application stating that they agreed with the doctrine of the UPCI when in reality either they did not....or they at some point changed. Are some of those men good men.......absolutely.....but one should not preach truth and live a lie.

[Ferd]

Lets not forget this conversation is happening while we watch. The new leadership make course corrections.

And let's also remember the guys in charge back then are now on the other side of the grave.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I understand the argument that people were "forced to leave" because of the AS.....I cannot agree however. When people signed their applications they covenanted themselves to abide by the governing document (the manual) of the organization. They knew what they were agreeing to believe, teach, and practice. All the AS did was make them accountable for what they had already covenanted to do.

I have stated many times that I actually had great respect for the men (even if I disagreed with their beliefs) who said I cannot sign a lie nor violate my conscious. However, the reality is that they (and all of those who continue to sign knowing they do NOT believe) were lying anyway. They signed an application stating that they agreed with the doctrine of the UPCI when in reality either they did not....or they at some point changed. Are some of those men good men.......absolutely.....but one should not preach truth and live a lie.

Many signed out of fear because they feared to lose their church.
Their livelihood depended on their ministry.

Others did not want to leave the church, so even though they did not agree they signed because they wanted to stay, not because they believe in the AS.

I believe that it is time for ALL (Yes I mean ALL, Whether they believe it or not) ministers to simply refuse to sign the AS and simply send in their yearly renewal fees. If enough ministers simply refuse to sign, this will force a change.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Many signed out of fear because they feared to lose their church.
Their livelihood depended on their ministry.

Others did not want to leave the church, so even though they did not agree they signed because they wanted to stay, not because they believe in the AS.

I believe that it is time for ALL (Yes I mean ALL, Whether they believe it or not) ministers to simply refuse to sign the AS and simply send in their yearly renewal fees. If enough ministers simply refuse to sign, this will force a change.

if you will just be a bit patient, you will see things change in a positive way. Or you can keep on being all worried about it and well.... thing are still going to go in one direction or another.


I know a lot of guys who sign and attach a letter that clarifies what they are saying with their signature. LOL. I like that.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Ferd

if you will just be a bit patient, you will see things change in a positive way. Or you can keep on being all worried about it and well.... thing are still going to go in one direction or another.


I know a lot of guys who sign and attach a letter that clarifies what they are saying with their signature. LOL. I like that.

Agreed.

[navygoat1998]

The only problem I can see with the UPCI, is I left

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I wouldn't know.

However can anyone answer why the 1 steppers were content to be a part of this organization and not force the 3 steppers to change but not vice versa?

Even pastors who did not believe Standards were a heaven or hell issue were content to be organized and keep doing the standards bit before that "fateful resolution" tried to force people to hand their brains over to something they could not

Because most 1 Steppers like myself are considerably more tolerant than a true 3 stepper...

While many 1 steppers believe Baptism In Jesus' Name and Speaking in Tongues are important doctrines (even though not salvific) they are tolerant of those believers who disagree with them (both three steppers and Baptists) and expect to see them in heaven.

[Blubayou]

Excellent discussion, like AFF of old.