Church Ownership

[Charnock]

Who owns the local church?

The people? The board? The denomination? The pastor?

I ask because there is a train of thought that asks people who disagree with the pastor to leave the church.

[MissBrattified]

Legally? It depends on the bylaws. Otherwise? God does, ultimately, and His laws apply.

What does His Word say about submitting to authorities?

I would leave to keep MY conscience clear; not for any other reason. Would you keep attending a church while openly disobeying church guidelines? And if so, for what purpose?

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Legally? It depends on the bylaws. Otherwise? God does, ultimately, and His laws apply.

What does His Word say about submitting to authorities?

I would leave to keep MY conscience clear; not for any other reason. Would you keep attending a church while openly disobeying church guidelines? And if so, for what purpose?

I am pretty sure he is asking who owns the building and physical assets. The answer to that is whatever the name of the non-profit entity is.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Legally? It depends on the bylaws. Otherwise? God does, ultimately, and His laws apply.

What does His Word say about submitting to authorities?

I would leave to keep MY conscience clear; not for any other reason. Would you keep attending a church while openly disobeying church guidelines? And if so, why and for what purpose?

The pastor has no authority outside of God's Word. He has no right to teach personal preferences. I would consider removing the pastor if he was teaching preferences.

Individuals and families invest thousands of dollars and decades of their lives into a local church only to have a new pastor move in with a wild hair.

It's not right to ask them to leave just because he goes off his rocker.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Charnock

The pastor has no authority outside of God's Word. He has no right to teach personal preferences. I would consider removing the pastor if he was teaching preferences.

Individuals and families invest thousands of dollars and decades of their lives into a local church only to have a new pastor move in with a wild hair.

It's not right to ask them to leave just because he goes off his rocker.

The wild card here is that there are so many interpretations of scripture, that a pastor may feel he is teaching the scripture exactly the way it was intended. For every scripture, there are a hundred different interpretations.....evidenced by the fact that there are over 38,000 denominations in the world, stemming from the same Bible.

[ILG]

When we had our issues, my husband did ask one family to leave. That is because after my husband denied membership to the husband in the family because a neighboring pastor told my husband he lied to him and he was trying to control everything that was going on in that church, saying the previous pastor had to shuffle funds around to pay the bills (when things in the finances were very questionable). After this man pointed in the face of a man who my husband had appointed as a trustee and yelled "You are not a trustee!" and then after I found a man in a pew crying who told me this man had elbowed him hard on the way out but that he didn't want to press charges, my husband decided to ask this family to leave. The wife had been sitting behind me in the pew badmouthing my husband during his preaching for months and would loudly pray during business meetings about what their wishes were.....keep in mind this family had attended there for 30 years. The night came when my husband was going to ask them to leave and the husband did not show up. The wife did and my husband asked her to leave. She refused. My husband asked her again. She refused again. My husband told her he was going to call the police. She said "Fine! Go ahead!" and so he did. After going into the auditorium, the police officer refused to remove her because she hadn't been causing an issue that evening. These people continued to come to the church and caused us scores of problems including suing us saying my husband had "breached his fiduciary duty" because there was no money when we got there and people thought there was supposed to be.

Sigh.

So, what do you do in that case? The district superintendent railed on my husband for this decision even though he would do nothing about the financial "indiscretions". He would not address them. He forced my husband to accept them back into the church. I am sure that many people thought poor them....such an abusive pastor.....and really all the people were confused. But that was the previous pastor and district superintendents fault. They could have cleared it up if they had addressed the issues. When we were forced to accept them back in the DS told them that there had been no proper record keeping and that was the end of it.

So, who owns the church? Good question.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Charnock

...there is a train of thought that asks people who disagree with the pastor to leave the church.

I dislike this characterization,
as it implies that there is some guy
on earth that one might agree with wholly,
when I don't believe that this is the case,
or even supposed to be.

I have a Right Pastor right now, and listen to several others;
none of which I agree with entirely. Jim Jones' followers
agreed with every word he said, and I believe this
is given for a type.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Charnock

The pastor has no authority outside of God's Word. He has no right to teach personal preferences. I would consider removing the pastor if he was teaching preferences.

Individuals and families invest thousands of dollars and decades of their lives into a local church only to have a new pastor move in with a wild hair.

It's not right to ask them to leave just because he goes off his rocker.

People shouldn't be asked to leave over disagreement. When my husband disallowed the husband in that family membership....temporarily, just until he could figure out what was going on with the finances, he did not ask these people to leave. Their response? Tell everyone my husband was picking and choosing who could and could not be members and try to get the district superintendent to have a pastoral vote of confidence. Something the DS did not do because they didn't have enough backing.

So, being asked to leave because of abuse is a good reason, I think. But not for disagreement.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Who owns the local church?

The people? The board? The denomination? The pastor?

I ask because there is a train of thought that asks people who disagree with the pastor to leave the church.

Back to the original questions here.... As far as the physical plant of the building and property, it really depends on how the bylaws are set up. Within the organization I am Ordained with, the property belongs to the denomination. That has it's pro's and con's. It's a huge PRO when the congregation may be up against it financially and need help keeping the lights on, or need the organization to co sign a loan to build. It's a con when the organization has a say in local affairs.... there are no perfect situations.

I think any person thinking about becoming a member of a local church should interview a pastor and ask questions just as they may be asked questions as well from any pastor. Ask point blank how the church government operates, how the finances are handled, how church business is done... how open is leadership to hearing questions and ideas. Right from the very start you'll know if this is a place that has a dictator or a servant leading them.

I'd much rather walk away without any bad blood in the beginning because I know it just won't work, than try to bend a stump that won't give.

The Bible does have a Biblical method of dealing with disagreements, and even with disfellowshipping, but it must be handled Biblically. That's why you ask questions in the beginning. See if they use Matthew 18 as the foundation, and if they believe in servant leadership, or if the whole world revolves around them and their on an ego trip.

Same goes for taking a job... interview the prospective employer as much as they interview you for the candidate.... the fit has to be both ways.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Back to the original questions here.... As far as the physical plant of the building and property, it really depends on how the bylaws are set up. Within the organization I am Ordained with, the property belongs to the denomination. That has it's pro's and con's. It's a huge PRO when the congregation may be up against it financially and need help keeping the lights on, or need the organization to co sign a loan to build. It's a con when the organization has a say in local affairs.... there are no perfect situations.

I think any person thinking about becoming a member of a local church should interview a pastor and ask questions just as they may be asked questions as well from any pastor. Ask point blank how the church government operates, how the finances are handled, how church business is done... how open is leadership to hearing questions and ideas. Right from the very start you'll know if this is a place that has a dictator or a servant leading them.

I'd much rather walk away without any bad blood in the beginning because I know it just won't work, than try to bend a stump that won't give.

The Bible does have a Biblical method of dealing with disagreements, and even with disfellowshipping, but it must be handled Biblically. That's why you ask questions in the beginning. See if they use Matthew 18 as the foundation, and if they believe in servant leadership, or if the whole world revolves around them and their on an ego trip.

Same goes for taking a job... interview the prospective employer as much as they interview you for the candidate.... the fit has to be both ways.

I totally agree with this post. This is good business, saves misunderstandings later, such as "Well, I assumed you believed this.......or taught this......." as well as helping the potential member decide whether he/she feels comfortable making a financial investment.