Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryseeker
I don't disagree with what you've said, but I think the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying is that I am talking about structure and you are talking about purpose.
I am talking about both structure and purpose, I don't think you can separate the two.
Notice in the verse you quoted ( Eph 4:11). It says that He gave some... and some...and some...etc. Notice that He didn't give any "none." Everyone has (or should have) a ministry gift in their life including those operating in what has been termed the five-fold.
Again he gave... if I understand you when you said he gave some I beleive in each church body should be all the "five fold ministrey" although they may or may not make up the leadership. Yes every one has a ministry.
Back to what you said. The way I've said it many times is likening the church to a football gave. In football their are players and coaches. The coaches equip for the working of the game while the players go out and accomplish and do the work.
I like that you used the term "Coaches" plural.
The church has it backwards. We have all the coaches on the field playing while all the players sit in the pews cheering the coaches on.
Maybee we have it backwards but we also have it out of line too.
But my overall point is, there is a structure and throughout the Bible God uses individuals to lead groups. |
And here is where we differ God does have a structure but it is not induviduals leading the groups. There was a reason Jesus call twelve diciples. There were issues of who would be greatest in the Kingdom note how Jesus dealt with this
Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
It seems a little strange that the Lord would address this issue in this manner if he wanted just one person to stand out in each assembly.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Even Peter did not travel alone, there are many other referances like this even Paul did not travel alone but there were other diciples with him. Im not going to list them all for space concerns but I can. Mentioned in this thread has been the council in Jerusalem in the 15th chapter of Acts to try and say James was the leader, yet when we take a close look James was not necceserely the leader he was just the one that spoke the word for that time.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that
Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto
the apostles and elders about this question.
They did not go the Jeusalem to bring the question to James, they went to the
apostles and elders.
My point is God wants to work thru the Body without a man/women getting in the way. In other words God works to the individual thru a individual. God works in the body thru the body not individual.
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