*** Poll: Does all scripture point to Acts 2:38? ****

[SDG]

Does all scripture point to Acts 2:38 .... or does it point to Christ and the work of the Lamb at the Cross?

I've heard a few in forumland say that believe all scripture does point to Acts 2:38.

This is part of a discussion on this matter that took place in one of the Fudge threads.

Before you decide to defend your doctrinal position ... whether one, two, three, or 14 steps. Think this one through.

Tell us why you hold your view.

Originally Posted by Adino

A fundamental difference, indeed. Acts 2:38 should point to the Cross.

Originally Posted by Adino

The water/spirit position has unfortunately assumed that the cross's work climaxes in a "plan" found in Acts 2:38. It incorrectly takes the position that the Cross points to Acts 2:38. In reality, the plan of salvation was hanging on the cross.

The Cross does not point to a saving formula in Acts 2:38; Acts 2:38 should point to the saving work of the Cross.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

One problem I have with the water/Spirit doctrine is that this view simply doesn't represent what actually happens in a person's life when they look to Jesus Christ for salvation. I agree that the message of Acts 2:38 points back to the cross. I don't need to die, be buried and rise again. I need to accept by faith that Jesus died, was buried and rose again on my behalf. Repentance, water baptism, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost is my way of identifying with and being empowered by what was accomplished for me at Calvary.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

The two views(PCI and PAJC) IMHO represent a difference between where one places the emphasis. Do we place the emphasis on what Jesus Christ did to save us or emphasize what we do to save ourselves? Peter's message on the Day of Pentecost emphasized Jesus Christ and what He accomplished. Acts 2:38 was very simply the altar call not the message that was preached. PAJCers make Acts 2:38 THE MESSAGE. Paul and Peter both made the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ THE MESSAGE.

Originally Posted by pelathais

I've often wondered about the element of sympathetic magic at work here.

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Sympathetic magic" was a practice among many cultures where if a person wanted something, they had to do something similar. For example, if a wife wanted a baby but seemed to not be able to conceive, she would still dress up in maternity garb and act as if she were pregnant.

In the Bible we also find "examples," though many would obviously object to the association. When Jacob wanted "ringstraked and speckled" cattle, he carved the bark off of branches of wood to make the branches "ringstraked and speckled" (Genesis 30:31-43 and Genesis 32:1-12). When an iron axe head fell into the water, sank and was lost, Elisha spread wood over the site and the iron floated as if it were wood (2 Kings 6:1-7). These could be examples of "sympathetic magic."

We might also say that the so called "magic hair" doctrine is another example among some Oneness folks. When you want your prayers to get the attention of angels and heaven itself, why not put your prayers down on paper and mingle the paper with a woman's uncut hair? Sympathetic magic.

What of baptism? Why are to be "buried with Christ" in the waters of baptism, so that as Christ rose from the dead, so also will God quicken our mortal bodies. There is an obvious identification with Christ that comes through Christian baptism, particularly baptism in Jesus Name. Are some wanting to carry that act of identification forward to the point where it is no longer an act of identification, but it becomes a form of sympathetic magic?

And remember, I haven't even ruled out the possibility that sympathetic magic can at times be valid. I'm just wondering how far are we comfortable in carrying this point about water baptism? Is it "magic?"

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Christ's work was finished on the cross. The Lamb was slain and the blood of atonement was shed. The price for our sin was paid. If we leave it there then what does it accomplish? Without faith in that sacrifice and repentance (change of mind that leads us to turn away from darkness and sin to God) Christ sacrifice would be fruitless. Our repentance is a type of dying to sin and to our old sinful lifestyle..the old man dies. Baptism is a type of burial of the body of the sins of the flesh and being filled with the Spirit a type of resurrection in which we rise in newness of life. We have the life of God in us. It's more than a symbolic association with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. There are actual Spiritual processes taking place. The work is the Spirit's. It's the process of new birth. God is birthing us not we ourselves as many would have us to believe. That we are saving ourselves apart from the cross, the blood, and the Spirit.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Now this is the part that none of you have been able to explain from the scriptures except in abstract concepts or figures of speech.

When do we receive the Spirit of Christ? What does the Bible say?

When are our sins remitted/washed away? What does the Bible say?

The Spirit of God is involved in water baptism directly performing an act of circumcision see Romans 2:28-29 NASB and Colossians 2:11-12. The Spirit of God fills us, baptizes us in His ownself. We receive the gift of the Spirit by faith (the means is faith) when our hearts are made right through repentance.

Explain if you will why after our new birth, if and when we sin, we are advised to confess our sins and the blood of Jesus Christ will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I'm assuming you do not take this literally. But there is a washing available even after our initial cleansing when our sins were first remitted.

I guess my experience influences my thoughts on this subject as well. When I was baptized in Jesus name, I felt clean on the inside and while under the water I had an overwhelming sense of peace with God. Something happens spiritually when we are baptized.

Originally Posted by Adino

One of the things I enjoy most about a oneness pentecostal service is the Christocentric worship. I wish the doctrine was just as Christ centered.

Thoughts, comments, etc????