John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Esaias]

Part 2 -

You will be in the good company of Enoch who never heard the Word yet pleased God enough to be taken. Would you describe this man Enoch, who never had the law Ro5.13 or Gospel, as unrighteous, without faith or grace, justified by his good works apart from faith?

You presume an awful lot about Enoch.

Genesis 5:22-24 KJV
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: [23] And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: [24] And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch walked with God, yet you seem to think he had no clue who God was, he was just some heathen who happened to "do right by his conscience"? Please, stop.

What hope have any of them to get it right enough to go to Heaven

See? You are a legalist, who thinks justification is by works instead of faith. Please listen to the Bible:

Romans 4:1-5 KJV
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

See? To the legalist, the one who attempts to be justified by works apart from faith, the reward is reckoned as a matter of debt, not grace. So too YOU (being a legalist) think "going to heaven" (what you imagine is the reward) is a matter of DEBT, that God OWES it to somebody. "Get it right enough to go to heaven"? Earn enough money for the taxi fare? Do enough good works to pay the ferryman to get into heaven? Legalism, justification by works, you reckon the reward as a matter of DEBT and not GRACE. Your belief is the very thing Paul was refuting.

have already said you agree that some folks are saved by works apart from faith, and that God will be pleased with some folks even though they have no faith. You again put words in my mouth which I haven't uttered.

You uttered this:

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

QUOTE=Amanah;1615258Are you teaching that some can be saved by works without faith?

You make a good observation which hadn't come to my mind. To give a concise answer and not avoid the question: the answer may be yes. But with explanation.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I didn't even "read between the lines" like you say you are doing with Paul. I just took you for your word, that yes, you are saying some folks can be saved by works without faith.

These Ro2 Gentiles clearly have faith of sorts because they show the work of the law in their hearts. To say I say they don't have faith puts words in my mouth which I never speak. Have you no other ammo to use than this? With your experience here in AFF you should be able to do better than this, unless this is a habit you use to denigrade others thoughts when you have none better to counter with.

Please, the ad hominems are unnecessary. YOU SAID YES when you were asked if some people can be saved by works without faith. Now, as to Romans 2 and the Gentiles Paul is talking about, yes they have faith, they are in the new covenant as I already proved over and over again, allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter.

Plz provide an answer about righteous Cornelius. You didn't answer this question, which I'll ask again, 'Would Cornelius have gone to hell had he died before meeting Peter?' Ac10.2, though he lived in the NT times? [/COLOR]

I noticed you haven't answered several of my questions, like "Are you a Calvinist?" which was prompted by your statements about predestination and so forth. Anyway, about Cornelius:

Acts 11:13-14 KJV
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; [14] Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Clearly, Cornelius was NOT SAVED until after he heard Peter's preaching. He was going to hear words "whereby" he and his household would be "saved". Therefore, he was not "saved" until after he heard those words. Next?

Plz provide an explanation how those in the Age of Conscience can be seen as righteous without the Covenant of the law, yet by your interpretation of things, people can't ever be seen as righteous in the NT Age outside of the New Covenant?

What is the New Covenant that Christ came to establish? What was His mission?

Luke 1:68-75 KJV
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [69] And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; [70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: [71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; [72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; [73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, [74] That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, [75] In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Abraham was before the Sinaitic covenant. Christ came to fulfill the covenant with Abraham. Here it is again:

Galatians 3:6-12 KJV
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. [10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The Bible does not speak of any "Age of Conscience". That is an invention you have imported into the discussion. You know what else the Bible DOES say, though?

Genesis 26:5 KJV
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.