The Legalist on Covenant

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Sounds like a deterministic form of faith... "a regenerated person WILL CONTINUE" See the Bible talks about slothful servants, and also those who don't continue and fall away. As usual reformed dogma forces only TWO options(regenerated or unregenerated) instead of what the Bible teaches.

Again you said "Repentance to me has to be almost instantaneous after new birth" sorry but you clearly are Calvinistic in your teaching on this. Repentance to you is AFTER salvation. Thus not necessary to be saved. Your view does not allow one to count the cost. Does not allow one to reason. Does not allow one to cast off his life in choice to follow. You have saved people never even choosing covenant.

You are right that the bible talks about those who will fall away. But lets be honest. We have no way of knowing who is regenerate and who is not. Our only proof that someone is regenerate is what we see over the long term. If we see that they fall away never to return or repent then we can safely say that they weren't born again.

I have seen people who I thought were great spiritual leaders that have completely fallen away. Looking back over the years I now remember certain behavior and actions that supported the argument they might have never been truly saved. They were just living under law and performing the works that they were expected to perform.

Of course at the time these minor behaviors occurred everyone gave them the benefit of the doubt because in our immaturity we thought that they were saved. Truthfully the warning signs were there all along and anyone outside the UPC or our circle could easily see.

My wife didn't grow up UPC and she could spot these people a mile off. I would always be horrified when she would question leaders or certain "spiritual giants" but one by one every single one of those people have fallen.

My hope and prayer is that they will repent before it is to late and that they will truly be born again.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Faith only" in "Jesus only!"

Faith Only is a matter of context of what is meant which I explained later. LOL!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

We do respond to the gospel with repentance. However, an unregenerate heart cannot turn towards God. I believe that I do have a response in my salvation but it is not the decisive action. Jesus not only paid for my salvation at calvary but he also purchased the salvation work of all those who were given to him by the Father.

Why do I believe this? Looking back I can see that I tried everything I could to find God. A million times I tried to repent and come to him and a million times I failed and didn't receive what I thought I needed. I tried crying in the altar, I tried baptism, I tried speaking in tongues but just couldn't fake it anymore. I tried reading my bible and committing my life to him but it was all for nothing until I was born again by true faith that it was finished on the cross.

Thus nothing really happened to you but you just let go.... You came to a knowledge of something and felt better. Hope everything works out for you but what you went through and somehow saying well because I could not do xyz and I struggled negates clear teaching of the Bible. sorry not going for it. Also if you are "faking" tongues then you truly have not been empowered by the HS. This mental "euphoria" you experienced which you feel ok now which is the normal---- "it's not about you it's about him" denies the clearest point of what Jesus said. It's about BOTH...to abide you must do. Yes, he purchased you by contract as YOU also purchased salvation. He purchased salvation by his life and death through resurrection. He offers it TO YOU at a cost. Until you count the cost to respond in faith in wholeness of heart you are considered at enmity with God. Man's heart cannot be said to be turned until a TRUE choice has been made. I don't believe in Original Sin doctrine as you do. Man is not totaly depraved like you said. Matter of fact your comments show you don't even believe in TD as a calvinist should believe.

God pulls at our hearts and though we resist he is right there working in our salvation.

You grab parts of calvinism but that is not Irresistible Grace.

A part of my resistance was the Acts 2:38/water and spirit doctrine. I thought that if I did this he owed me salvation and that some miracle would happen and I would feel saved. But I didn't feel saved because I wasn't. I hadn't been preached the gospel and if I had it was so obscured by the message being preached that I couldn't see the gospel.

Salvation is owed in part as God promises it to those who DO! If salvation by Grace/offering? YES! Is it still owed to those who believe/trust/faithfulness YES!

Legalist, I loved the message that I was taught to the point that I couldn't be saved. My mind was so clouded with what I was supposed to do that I couldn't see how God had anything to do with my salvation.

You have a wrong view of salvation. Salvation is about covenant and judgment by deeds. In the end GOD judges unto life or death. Your salvation is not a off an on again issue. You are brought in a position to OBTAIN IT with hope by covenant. In the end God looks at the whole of your heart and life in the end. Coming INTO Christ is about covenant. Once in Christ you are not under the condemnation of sin IF you abide. Pauls points are about a law does not exclude one from coming INTO covenant with Christ or needed works of the law before one is considered covenant worthy.
Acts 10 and those that are filled with the HS was proof as the sign of God's acceptance to come into covenant. Thus Peters words that they be baptized.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Why would one forbid water? Because they understood it's significance of entrance INTO Christ and covenant.

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

How could Peter withstand God? By not allowing them to be baptized(forbid water verse 47) of which when Peter saw THEY AS WELL received like they had. Who was he to withstand repentance(turning) unto life(baptism) Acts 2:38 and Romans 6 "rise to newness of life")

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted(grace/offering) repentance unto life. (see above)


One does have to have the work of the heart of which we respond toward or against the ministry of the Word. IN hearing we MUST choose to negate ALL to obtain life. Is our heart regenerated(though I don't agree with how reformed context of this word and the meaning many put with it) in the sense "toward" God at this point if we choose? Yes, does it mean we are in covenant yet? No! That comes AT BAPTISM. It is the appointed time. Is it man's work that his heart is toward God? No because he is not the "author" of that which he responds to! It's be hearing the Word which by the ministry of HEARING and gaining knowledge faith comes! Faith comes by hearing which is a natural ELEMENT! Thus we respond in the natural realm to what we hear. Man is a rational being and wonderfuly made in the image of his creator BUT is subject to the curse of provision in which he is inclined to provide for himself. Without God and his ministry of those who respond there is NO MESSAGE thus he is the author of that which is the good news not man. Thus God gives repentance "the ability to turn/respond by hearing a message"! How can I choose to turn unless I hear? How can I hear without a speaker? I CAN'T this is all natural elements.

BTW, I do consider myself to be reformed or calvinist.

sorry to hear this but you need to work on your Calvinism as much of what you said is in contradiction to its tenants. Though obviously you pick and choose parts of it.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

You are right that the bible talks about those who will fall away. But lets be honest. We have no way of knowing who is regenerate and who is not. Our only proof that someone is regenerate is what we see over the long term. If we see that they fall away never to return or repent then we can safely say that they weren't born again.

This is ridiculous! Jesus clearly taught many times the principle of knowing of someone is in the vine. John taught it as well. What fruit do they have?

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

This falls in DIRECT LINE with John 15. That would be IN LAW toward God as John 15 clearly points out.

A person can speak in tongues which is from God but it does not mean they are abiding in him. Initial tongues are a sign from God of acceptance and the offering of God.

I have seen people who I thought were great spiritual leaders that have completely fallen away. Looking back over the years I now remember certain behavior and actions that supported the argument they might have never been truly saved. They were just living under law and performing the works that they were expected to perform.

No at one point they probably where. Your view is skewed of this ONE or the OTHER! Slothful servants etc... means they where abiding at one point.

Of course at the time these minor behaviors occurred everyone gave them the benefit of the doubt because in our immaturity we thought that they were saved. Truthfully the warning signs were there all along and anyone outside the UPC or our circle could easily see.

Maybe so, as I don't know but again your view either one is saved and forever he will be a Christian is not Biblical.

My wife didn't grow up UPC and she could spot these people a mile off. I would always be horrified when she would question leaders or certain "spiritual giants" but one by one every single one of those people have fallen.

would have to know her argument first and who it was etc...

My hope and prayer is that they will repent before it is to late and that they will truly be born again.

This so goes against everything you say. You are all over the board on theology.

[/QUOTE]

[deltaguitar]

Legalist, I don't think you know that much about Calvinism. If you did you would know that Irresistible Grace does not mean that God cannot be resisted. The Holy Spirit is resisted by every man until they are born again and even after we are constantly fighting against our sin nature which wants to resist God.

Your only argument is for the water and spirit new birth. You have to force all of your theology to that little box. A lot of what you say makes sense except that you have to take all the good things you teach, like repentance, faith, works, good deeds, etc., and you have to force it through John 3:5 and Acts 2:38.

You believe that WE "purchase our salvation" and that we do certain things to come into covenant with Christ. I don't believe this.

I do believe, however, that we do have a response to the gospel and that we should turn to Christ and abide in him. Baptism of he Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues has absolutely nothing to do with that.

So, just so I am clear let me outline your beliefs. If you do not agree you can modify it. I just need to try to figure out where exactly you are coming from.

1) You believe that a person only receives the Holy Spirit only after the initial evidence and speaking with tongues.

2) You believe that "we purchase our salvation" along with Christ by following baptism and I assume Holy Spirit baptism with tongues.

3) We then have to abide in Christ, which to you means we have to live perfectly before the Lord and any sin means we are outside of Christ and therefore we have are no longer born again.

4) You believe that repentance is something we accomplish on our own and prior to the work of regeneration in our lives.

5) After, and only after repentance, Baptism in Jesus name, and Holy Ghost Baptism with the evidence of speaking in other tongues are we born again but that no security of our salvation or belief that if we fall into Satan's trap that God will work to bring us back into Him.

[deltaguitar]

Legalist I don't know what your background is but I was raised UPC. I learned all the Bernard stuff from a young child. It wasn't logic or experiance that changed my mind but it was the word of God. I remember the first time I encountered things that didn't match up with the UPC I put my bible away and didn't touch it again for probably three years.

I was as locked in as anybody and I love it all. But I gave it up because I no longer saw it in the bible anymore. I couldn't lie to myself.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Legalist, I don't think you know that much about Calvinism. If you did you would know that Irresistible Grace does not mean that God cannot be resisted. The Holy Spirit is resisted by every man until they are born again and even after we are constantly fighting against our sin nature which wants to resist God.

I am talking about the ultimate end game... Not the well it's really no forced comments many say but the end reality of what the result is.

Your only argument is for the water and spirit new birth. You have to force all of your theology to that little box. A lot of what you say makes sense except that you have to take all the good things you teach, like repentance, faith, works, good deeds, etc., and you have to force it through John 3:5 and Acts 2:38.

I don't have to force anything scripture is clear on these issues of what baptism is and repentance, faith and works etc... Acts 2:38 is turn and be united in baptism with christ and you shall receive.... John 3:5 is the basis of coming alive in baptism unto newness of life and the aspect of coming alive in spiritual interaction through the Spirit.

You believe that WE "purchase our salvation" and that we do certain things to come into covenant with Christ. I don't believe this.

Sorry but that is CLEARLY what Jesus says in the Parable of Pearl of Great Price and The Hidden Treasure. We give to obtain thus we purchase. Whether you believe it or not it is clearly taught be Jesus many many times.

I do believe, however, that we do have a response to the gospel and that we should turn to Christ and abide in him. Baptism of he Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues has absolutely nothing to do with that.

THat is your opinion of what you are entitled but I don't agree.

So, just so I am clear let me outline your beliefs. If you do not agree you can modify it. I just need to try to figure out where exactly you are coming from.

fine

1) You believe that a person only receives the Holy Spirit only after the initial evidence and speaking with tongues.

What does "receive" mean? We are accepted yes which Acts 10 shows as does Acts 8 those wait on the Spirit manifested and as a sign of acceptance etc.... The sign of the Spirit is a acceptance issue of the Spiritual. God will bring you alive/work through the Spirit. If you are not manifesting spiritual gifts ... you clearly cannot be alive. God bears witness with our Spirit just like Acts 10 and 8 and others...

2) You believe that "we purchase our salvation" along with Christ by following baptism and I assume Holy Spirit baptism with tongues.

Baptism is simply the appointed time of unification WITH Christ. Romans 6. tongues is a evidence of the Spirit by which God manifests witness with our Spirit. We do purchase and God judges your side of the agreement by witness of deeds.

3) We then have to abide in Christ, which to you means we have to live perfectly before the Lord and any sin means we are outside of Christ and therefore we have are no longer born again.

sheesh abiding is a simple term of not at enmity with God. You heart is toward him. Thus you are toward him and listening to his leading you. "Perfectly"???? We are judged by DEEDS which is a matter of the heart of which EVERY WORD we will give a account. It's not about "perfect" or being without mistake but of judgment in the end. If we sin he is faithful to forgive/pardon etc... We as citizens of the kingdom "abide" by doing his will and commandment. John several times is VERY CLEAR ON THIS what is made known and our evidence as Christians!

4) You believe that repentance is something we accomplish on our own and prior to the work of regeneration in our lives.

"Accomplish" I love how you force meanings you like which shows evidence of your failed mindset. repentance is a turning of mind toward God and his Word to do. One cannot say he is "regenerated" unless he is actually turned in mind. How does "turning" come about or according to you "accomplish". Hearing the Word/message etc... I cannot be changed until I hear. You force change upon someone who has not heard. You make them changed so they CAN hear. I don't believe in Total Depravity or Original Sin.

5) After, and only after repentance, Baptism in Jesus name, and Holy Ghost Baptism with the evidence of speaking in other tongues are we born again but that no security of our salvation or belief that if we fall into Satan's trap that God will work to bring us back into Him.

God will lead but do we follow. He may call but do we respond or do we love the world more or fall over time due to pressure. Are we slothful sometimes giving and sometimes not as a hot and cold Christian. We can be assured God loves us and will convict us. Paul is clear in his teaching that his judgment would be nothing but what mattered was the judgment in the end and if he was faithful to be declared righteous.

The story of the Prodigal Son is clear. He was not ALIVE again until he confessed and declared so by the Father. He was considered DEAD until then.

We experience the new birth/made alive at baptism(Romans 6 is clear) and are united with him. The Spirit is about endowment and acceptance. To be alive in the Spirit means he manifests himself. To be alive in Christ means we are circumcised from the body of sin unto newness of life. Thus we are made alive by water and Spirit.
One is of covenant the other is of endowment. One must be made alive by the water and Spirit. Pretty simple. God can move upon ANYONE even a donkey but that does not mean the donkey is in covenant and in Christ. It does mean though that the donkey was acceptable for God's use. Just as we are shown to be by God when he manifests himself and uses us for his glory.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

explain further.

It wasn't merely a contract written between two parties but it was a will, enacted upon the death of the person willing. God gave it all to Jesus, Jesus gave it all to us upon his death

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It wasn't merely a contract written between two parties but it was a will, enacted upon the death of the person willing. God gave it all to Jesus, Jesus gave it all to us upon his death

Prax I am talking about the contract of the new covenant. WE have not inherited anything yet. He offers salvation upon which we respond to the cost. He gave nothing to anyone directly but to those who obey. If obedience is salvational then it is contractual.

[Jeffrey]

Romans 4:9-12

How can anyone still believe baptismal regeneration after these words by Paul (and in the fuller context of Romans for that matter?)

For we are saying, "Faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness." How, then, was it reckoned? When he was circumcised or when he was yet uncircumcised? It was not when he was circumcised but when he was uncircumcised. And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of righteousness of faith that was his when was was uncircumcised....

Pretty clear that circumcision, seen by many OP's as the old Baptism, is not the moment was righteousness is imputed, but rather before this happens, at faith.