The Second Coming of Christ

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by afp1996

Okay. Playtime is over.

Matthew 23:29-39 lays the foundation for Matthew 24. For your doctrine to work:



You have yet to prove there is a gap in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:37-38
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

If this is a rapture then you have a problem. This scripture states that the Coming of the Lord was like the days of Noah. During the judgment in Noah's day it was the wicked that were removed from the earth not the righteous. So it was at the Coming of the Lord. The wicked were removed not the righteous.

Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the reason that I quoted this in the beginning:



This scripture is clearly speaking of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, yet it uses the same exact type of language that is used in my original quote. You have already agreed that my original quote was a Judgment of God. I have shown above that this is a direct reference to the Coming of Jesus and that Jesus used the same language. To refute the plain language of these passages you will have to prove that the same language means completely different things between the two. You have no biblical reason to substantiate this. Please show how your doctrine can be correct with such plain language usage. If sun, moon, and stars stop shinning when the Babylonian Empire was destroyed, then they could also do the same when Jerusalem was. You will have to show how my original quote has not happened yet for your view of Matthew 24 to be credible.

Please show us your GAP.



You cannot prove a physical Coming of Jesus with Acts 1:9-11. It states the “same Jesus” would return “in like manner” as the “same Jesus” “went”. The manner that Jesus left their sight was not in a physical body. The manner which he was taken from their sight was by the Cloud that took him out of their sight.

Hebrews is talking about the High Priestly duty of Jesus. You are missing the whole point of that scripture when you place Acts 1:9-11 with it and try to prove a physical body by that. That is not good enough.



Zec. 12:10. Look at these verses: Acts Rev. 11:13 are two examples as is Rev 1:7, Acts 2:23, 40. Clear references to the 70 AD Coming. A Coming you have yet to prove did not take place as Jesus said it would.

Zec. 13, Peter stated this passage by Joel 2 were fulfilled in his generation please read Acts 2. Peter even goes so far as to say that he was living in the Last Days. What Peter taught on the Day of Pentecost is exactly what AFP teaches. Your futurism has changed the clear message. Prove that you, not Peter are living in the Last Days.


Jesus came to save the remnant of Israel in 70 AD. That remnant was in the Church. They were saved and left, and the wicked were removed. Your doctrine is on one side of Matthew 24 and the Word of God is on the other.

Word Count: 675

Don't post until I count the word count and direct the next response.

Remember the opinion of your opponent is not as important as the others reading this. So choose your words carefully. If you just blow off an answer or it appears that way, that will not look good either.

1. Debater 1 makes opening statement AFP
2. Debater 2 responds Jason
3. Response from Debater 1 AFP
4. Response from Debater 2 Jason
5. Response from Debater 1 AFP
   
6. Response from Debater 2 Jason responds next

After Jason's response we will have question and answer.

Each person asks one question, the other answers.

Then we have concluding remarks with no word limit where you can say whatever you want, in one post

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by afp1996

Okay. Playtime is over.

Right, you see that your argument is failing, so you are going to your big guns. But before we go there, let's review what arguments you ignorned to provide any answers for:

Originally Posted by Jason

What vision? These passages clearly teach there will be a rapture, and that will be at the last trumpet. Instead of dismissing the scriptures please tell us when those who were alive were changed from mortals to immortals, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If the second coming of Christ has happened, there should be evidence of this event being past tense.
1Corinthians 15:51-53
1Thessalonians 4:17

IGNORED

Originally Posted by Jason

Can you PROVE that Jesus came back with his angels? Who witnessed that?
Secondly, what do you do with the scriptures that teach he is coming back with his saints also? Just ignore them?

IGNORED

Originally Posted by afp1996

You cannot prove a physical Coming of Jesus with Acts 1:9-11. It states the “same Jesus” would return “in like manner” as the “same Jesus” “went”. The manner that Jesus left their sight was not in a physical body. The manner which he was taken from their sight was by the Cloud that took him out of their sight. That is not good enough.

So they WATCHED Him invisibly? No one who reads this debate will accept that. That is ridiculous. Reference here: Acts 1:9-11

Originally Posted by Jason

I disagree with your conclusions, but since you affirm that Jesus did come back in 70AD, please tell us when Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6 happened. Revelation 19 deals with the armies that made war against Jesus and his armies. How did this hapen in 70AD? The Romans came to destroy the Jews, no mention of fighting against Jesus or even his saints, since the Christians had fled. I would also like other scriptures explained that you ignorned, but I'll wait for your explanation of these before moving on to the others.

REVELATION 19:19 was IGNORED, as well as the explanation of how the Romans or any other army fought against Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by afp1996

Zec. 12:10. Look at these verses: Acts Rev. 11:13 are two examples as is Rev 1:7, Acts 2:23, 40. Clear references to the 70 AD Coming. Zec. 13, Peter stated this passage and Joel 2 were fulfilled in his generation please read Acts 2.

Readers, please look up the scriptures posted. They do not at all answer what I asked. I asked specifically when Zechariah 13:6 was fulfilled. Again, when during 70AD did He pour out the spirit of grace and supplication on the inhabitants of Jerusalem? Certainly not during the Roman invasion. And when did He come to save them, and someone ask him "What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." Want to take another stab at it: Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6.

Originally Posted by afp1996

A Coming you have yet to prove did not take place as Jesus said it would.

I would say that the burden of proof is upon you. You say the second coming is a thing of the PAST, so it should be easy for you to prove. I feel like the scriptures I have posted alone make my argument. Obviously you are not willing to show how they were fulfilled.

Originally Posted by afp1996

Jesus came to save the remnant of Israel in 70 AD. That remnant was in the Church. They were saved and left, and the wicked were removed. Your doctrine is on one side of Matthew 24 and the Word of God is on the other.

How were they left? All of the preterists teach that the christians had fled Jerusalem. With all due respect, you are reaching for anything.

Originally Posted by Jason

Sixth, at the time of Christ's return, He will take ruling dominion away from man (in the literal sense), and transfer it to Himself and His saints.

Originally Posted by afp1996

Sixth. Jesus never came or will come to set up a physical Kingdom on this earth. All your scriptures must be aligned with these too for your doctrine to be correct. What you posit would be the opposite of the Word of God. Please reconcile your physical Kingdom with these to scriptures:
Joh 18:36, Rom 14:17, and 1Co 15:50.

Originally Posted by Jason

The kingdom of God is presently a spritual kingdom. We don't fight this battle with bombs and guns. We fight it in prayer and obedience. But there is coming a time when the Kingdoms of this world will be overthrown by Christ. It is at that time (Armageddon) that He/we will fight.
Please explain how we are now living in the new earth, since all has been fulfilled. Again, I would like you to address the others passages I mentioned, but I will wait for your PROOF we are now living in the new earth.

IGNORED

Originally Posted by Jason

Seveth, the Devil will be bound from decieving the nations and there will war anymore.
Revelation 20:1-3
Isaiah 2:4
Micah 4:3

Originally Posted by afp1996

Seventh. The cross defeated Satan. He has no dominion over the nations anymore. Demonic dominion must come by individuals. If you understood the story of Namaan and the reason he wanted soil from Israel you would understand a little more what I mean. Also Jesus never came or will come to make peace on the earth. Jesus made this clear. Mat 10:34-36. This passage: Isaiah 2:1-4 can be understood by Bishop James' words here: Acts 15:15-17 as can Micah 2 with Romans 11.

Originally Posted by Jason

I guess I don't understand. Was Syrian soil demonic? This is terrible hermunetics. The devil is bound by the blood of Jesus in a Christians life. To say Satan isn't decieving the nations is incredible.

How is Isaiah 2:4 understood by Acts 15?
Since all scripture is fulfilled, please PROVE when this has ever been the case:
"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

Satan's activity in our present world, and the full preterist view that Satan has no further punishment coming from God, the earth goes on and on forever in its present state is perhaps the biggest case AGAINST full preterism. When Jesus comes back He will literally bind Satan, and Jesus will rule, and accomplish what man never could, peace on earth, not one war during his reign.

Please go further into detail on this, explaining how Revelation 20:1-3 has already happened. And how Satan can be so active from a bottomless pit.

IGNORED

Originally Posted by Jason

Eighth, Jesus is coming back in defense of Israel, not destruction of

Originally Posted by afp1996

Eighth. Daniel 9:24-27 clearly laid out that as a nation, God gave Israel one more chance. They had 490 years to complete the six points of that passage which would end with their Temple and City's destruction. No verse of prophetic scripture even remotely assumes the position of a future where God embraces Israel any other way but by His Church after that time. You cannot make the scripture say what you want it to. Any other view puts a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. If you posit that gap also please show where that is found in the text?

Originally Posted by Jason

Again you ignored the scriptures, let me simplify it for you. How did God fight against the nations who came against Jerusalem as Zechariah 12:9 describes?

IGNORED
Also ignored was the request:

Originally Posted by Jason

reconcile the fact that the prophecy says the city shall be "found no more at all" with the fact that Jerusalem exists as a major city in our world.

This is in response to teaching Jerusalem in the whore of Revelation 17&18.

Originally Posted by Jason

I do not feel that you even came close to explaining how many of the points I made were in error. I listed plenty of scripture, and have in the first response tried to narrow it down to even more specific scriptures so that you can PROVE to us how they have been fulfilled. If your position is correct, this should be easy to do

Judging by the amount of material you ignored, and the statement "playtime is over." I assume this is not easy for you to prove.

Wile I am tempted to ignore your points, as you did mine (j/k), I will actually deal with your post.

Originally Posted by afp1996

Mat 24:37-38
If this is a rapture then you have a problem. This scripture states that the Coming of the Lord was like the days of Noah. During the judgment in Noah's day it was the wicked that were removed from the earth not the righteous. So it was at the Coming of the Lord. The wicked were removed not the righteous.

Brother, I don't know that this is a rapture scripture. When I listed rapture scriptures, this was not among them. This is a "be ready" scripture. If you want a futurists rapture scripture, I would say more along the lines of gathering the elect from the four winds, and two in the field, one taken the other left." So I'm not sure what your point is.

Originally Posted by afp1996

Mat 24:29-31

I have already agreed that sun,moon, and stars references are references to the the judgment of God. The second coming of Christ is unique, because not only is it a judgment of God, thus we see language commonly associated with God's judgment. But it is unique because He will gather His saints (rapture) and come back to this earth in the plain sight of men. See scriptures listed in my first response.

Brother, you've got alot of work to do.

[Praxeas]

Please both Debaters read my notes when I post them.

Originally Posted by Jason

Right, you see that your argument is failing, so you are going to your big guns. But before we go there, let's review what arguments you ignorned to provide any answers for:


IGNORED


IGNORED

So they WATCHED Him invisibly? No one who reads this debate will accept that. That is ridiculous. Reference here: Acts 1:9-11


REVELATION 19:19 was IGNORED, as well as the explanation of how the Romans or any other army fought against Jesus Christ.

Readers, please look up the scriptures posted. They do not at all answer what I asked. I asked specifically when Zechariah 13:6 was fulfilled. Again, when during 70AD did He pour out the spirit of grace and supplication on the inhabitants of Jerusalem? Certainly not during the Roman invasion. And when did He come to save them, and someone ask him "What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." Want to take another stab at it: Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6.

I would say that the burden of proof is upon you. You say the second coming is a thing of the PAST, so it should be easy for you to prove. I feel like the scriptures I have posted alone make my argument. Obviously you are not willing to show how they were fulfilled.


How were they left? All of the preterists teach that the christians had fled Jerusalem. With all due respect, you are reaching for anything.



IGNORED



IGNORED




IGNORED
Also ignored was the request:
This is in response to teaching Jerusalem in the whore of Revelation 17&18.


Judging by the amount of material you ignored, and the statement "playtime is over." I assume this is not easy for you to prove.

Wile I am tempted to ignore your points, as you did mine (j/k), I will actually deal with your post.


Brother, I don't know that this is a rapture scripture. When I listed rapture scriptures, this was not among them. This is a "be ready" scripture. If you want a futurists rapture scripture, I would say more along the lines of gathering the elect from the four winds, and two in the field, one taken the other left." So I'm not sure what your point is.


I have already agreed that sun,moon, and stars references are references to the the judgment of God. The second coming of Christ is unique, because not only is it a judgment of God, thus we see language commonly associated with God's judgment. But it is unique because He will gather His saints (rapture) and come back to this earth in the plain sight of men. See scriptures listed in my first response.

Brother, you've got alot of work to do.

Word Count: 461

That concludes opening remarks and now we have question and answer.

Each person will be allowed a question to the opponent and the opponent will give an answer. This is the format it will be in

1. Cross Examination - Part 1
   1. Debater 2 asks 1st question
   2. Debater 1 responds
   3. Debater 2 asks 2nd question
   4. Debater 1 responds
2. Cross Examination - Part 2
   1. Debater 1 asks 1st question
   2. Debater 2 responds
   3. Debater 1 asks 2nd question
   4. Debater 2 responds

The word count for responses should be shorter since it's one question being answered. I like 300. Question and answers are meant to be short, not a time to author a rambling 700 word polemic.

I remind you again, you have a final concluding post with no word limit except whatever is max for a post, where you can make your final arguments or points. Point out what you felt was not addressed. Point out what you felt you DID address etc etc.

I need both of you now to agree we are moving on to the Cross examination round and that the word count is 300 max. Please both respond affirmation or questions or amendment to the word count or whatever. I need to know you are both ready to move on. No cross talking or anything else except on this next part of the debate

One final note. Wait for me to check word counts and redirect to the next round.

[Jason B]

300 is fine, I am ready to go.

[afp1996]

that will be fine

[Praxeas]

Great.

Jason will ask a question, AFP will respond (first question),

Jason will ask next quetion after AFP answers.

Then AFP will ask the questions.

Jason, post your question any time

[Jason B]

(this question is posed with the assumption that both sides believe that the rapture (aka ressurrection)happens at the same time as the second coming.)

Brother, how does FP get around the fact that a rapture of both the LIVING and dead saints is plainly and specifically taught by scripture to occour at the time of the second coming of Jesus Christ, where living people are changed from mortals to immortals without ever experiencing death (similar to Enoch and Elijah)?
1Thessalonians 4:13-17 (esp. verse 17)
1Corinthians 15:12-27,50-53 (esp. verses 50-54)

[Praxeas]

Since the only word count is the answer I don't really need to do anything. You can answer any time now

[afp1996]

(this question is posed with the assumption that both sides believe that the rapture (aka ressurrection)happens at the same time as the second coming.)

Brother, how does FP get around the fact that a rapture of both the LIVING and dead saints is plainly and specifically taught by scripture to occour at the time of the second coming of Jesus Christ, where living people are changed from mortals to immortals without ever experiencing death (similar to Enoch and Elijah)?
1Thessalonians 4:13-17 (esp. verse 17)
1Corinthians 15:12-27,50-53 (esp. verses 50-54)

I disagree that the rapture and the resurrection happened at the same time and both happen at the second coming of Christ. At least in the way you believe it.

1Thessalonians 4:13-17

Verses 13-16 speak of the dead and their resurrection. Verse 17 shows that those that were not dead at the time of the resurrection, who were alive past the resurrection would not be subject to the grave as their dead counterparts were but would be caught up to meet the Lord. When? 2Cor 5 says it will be realized when we put off this earthy house.

1Corinthians 15:27-50

Lays out that Jesus is the first fruits. Therefore the only visible proof of the resurrection needed.

1Corinthians 15:50-53

1)Says the physical body cannot inherit the Kingdom.
2)Those after the resurrection would not go to the grave. The prison for bodiless souls.
3)This would happen at the last trump.

1Corinthians 15:54-57

Clearly shows this would happen at the removal of the law system. AD 70 Coming and Judgment did just that with the Temple removed. This happened in Matt 24, which is a direct link to Daniel 12. Matt 24 has no gap in it's completion as you have failed to show one, and this all would happen within one generation. Jesus' generation per his own words. From the resurrection onward, with hell or the grave emptied, no one would go there again. For the Saved, the grave has no victory, and death has no sting.

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The change is being caught up so that we do not see the grave. The last trump sealed our future in eternity.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by afp1996

I disagree that the rapture and the resurrection happened at the same time and both happen at the second coming of Christ. At least in the way you believe it.

1Thessalonians 4:13-17

Verses 13-16 speak of the dead and their resurrection. Verse 17 shows that those that were not dead at the time of the resurrection, who were alive past the resurrection would not be subject to the grave as their dead counterparts were but would be caught up to meet the Lord. When? 2Cor 5 says it will be realized when we put off this earthy house.

1Corinthians 15:27-50

Lays out that Jesus is the first fruits. Therefore the only visible proof of the resurrection needed.

1Corinthians 15:50-53

1)Says the physical body cannot inherit the Kingdom.
2)Those after the resurrection would not go to the grave. The prison for bodiless souls.
3)This would happen at the last trump.

1Corinthians 15:54-57

Clearly shows this would happen at the removal of the law system. AD 70 Coming and Judgment did just that with the Temple removed. This happened in Matt 24, which is a direct link to Daniel 12. Matt 24 has no gap in it's completion as you have failed to show one, and this all would happen within one generation. Jesus' generation per his own words. From the resurrection onward, with hell or the grave emptied, no one would go there again. For the Saved, the grave has no victory, and death has no sting.

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The change is being caught up so that we do not see the grave. The last trump sealed our future in eternity.

Word Count: 296

BTW Remember it's one question, please don't expect the other person to address a dozen verses with a word count of 300. This is question and answer.

Jason it's your question again. After Afp answers he will then ask 2 questions