Is the pastor the modern day Moses?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I understand what you are saying, but I have been getting a different thought over the last several years. The Idea has come to me that in the early church that the ministry of the individual groups were multipul and not singular. Made up of several persons not a singul person.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Note Paul teaches us that God gave.... God did not give the church to the ministry but the other way around. Paul list the ministry commanly known as the five fold ministry. there is a distinct purpose for them. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry the word for perfecting is better translated equiping, we have this idea that it is the minstrys job to straighten us the saints out. I don't think this is so

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

as we are instructed we are to work out our own salvation so what is the ministrys job? For the equiping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Just as God gave the gifts of the spirit for the edifying of the body of Christ which is the church, God gave the ministry for the edifing of the body of Christ. Is there a single direct leader in the church I don't think so. Are we ready for things to be the way God disigned it to be I think we are closer then ever before. Several churches I have fellowshiped with are now set up much this way with the pastors as the main figure head but the church is actual controled by the ministring body.

And finallyyou referanced OT alot from the point of veiw that you are looking from but when you begin to see things from a differant point of view you see even the way OT examples look differently. At least I do. I am not trying to start and argument but I just wanted to throw a different point of view in here.

I don't disagree with what you've said, but I think the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying is that I am talking about structure and you are talking about purpose.

Notice in the verse you quoted (Eph 4:11). It says that He gave some... and some...and some...etc. Notice that He didn't give any "none." Everyone has (or should have) a ministry gift in their life including those operating in what has been termed the five-fold.

Back to what you said. The way I've said it many times is likening the church to a football gave. In football their are players and coaches. The coaches equip for the working of the game while the players go out and accomplish and do the work.

The church has it backwards. We have all the coaches on the field playing while all the players sit in the pews cheering the coaches on.

But my overall point is, there is a structure and throughout the Bible God uses individuals to lead groups.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

In revelation it does say angel of the church but in no wise proves single leadrship of the church

Sure, but at the same token you cannot say that it doesn't prove it. If you notice how I posed the question I didn't say of certain. However, as illustrated in my statement it doesn't make sense that Jesus was using John to write a physical letter to ministering spirits.

for even in acts when Paul spoked to the leadership of Ephesus he called for the elders of the church and said God made them overseers of the church.

Elders are overseers, which can be very different from leaders. In any modern structure whether, church, business, or even family there are leaders and those who oversee.

According to scripture the husband is the head of the family, but the wife may very well oversee the finances. This is really Structure 101 so your point must be something that I am not getting.

Just because James spoke does not mean he was single leadership of a church.

Again, true. But in reverse it does not mean he wasn't either. In study of it there appears to be a leadership position that obviously manifested

Moses was a type of christ, this why Paul refers to them baptized unto Moses.

Again, sure! But in the sense of a deliverer. This does not limit His example to us. The Israelite were an example of the church and our coming out of the world (Egypt) and into His Promises, but that doesn't keep us from looking at other aspects such as disobedience, lack of faith, and others.

[Sister Alvear]

no, the pastor is NOT a modern day Moses...

[Neck]

Originally Posted by BadgerBoysMom

It is my understanding that a number of things in the OT are a foreshadow of the things to come.

We are often taught (at my church) that the pastor is considered the modern day Moses. I am not certain that I see this or understand this. In fact I have been reprimanded by some in my church for even questioning him b/c God could cause me to be struck with leprosy (like Miriam) in the OT.

In the OT I understand that God spoke to specific people and that when He addressed the people it was through that specific person / prophet.

But in the NT it is my understanding that when the veil was torn and the barrier was broken thus the normal joes could talk to and hear from God.

We no longer needed the "high preist" to speak. Would you say this is correct?

I actually have different views on this so I am wondering what others have to say about this? Would this comparison be accurate in your assessment?

Thanks
BBM

Sounds more like your pastor wants to be a mini David Koresh..

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

no, the pastor is NOT a modern day Moses...

A few more pastors smite the rock than would Christ.

So as for trying to make things happen while leading the flock, without having the mind of God for the moment.

Now that sounds like a some...

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Sure, but at the same token you cannot say that it doesn't prove it. If you notice how I posed the question I didn't say of certain. However, as illustrated in my statement it doesn't make sense that Jesus was using John to write a physical letter to ministering spirits.



Elders are overseers, which can be very different from leaders. In any modern structure whether, church, business, or even family there are leaders and those who oversee.

According to scripture the husband is the head of the family, but the wife may very well oversee the finances. This is really Structure 101 so your point must be something that I am not getting.




Again, true. But in reverse it does not mean he wasn't either. In study of it there appears to be a leadership position that obviously manifested




Again, sure! But in the sense of a deliverer. This does not limit His example to us. The Israelite were an example of the church and our coming out of the world (Egypt) and into His Promises, but that doesn't keep us from looking at other aspects such as disobedience, lack of faith, and others.

The church was governed by elders, there's no mention of being runned by one leader. Not unless we add or assume things like with James in jerusalem.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Billy Boy

I have never heard this before. Does this mean the covenant was between Moses and the Jews? I always assumed moses was just the author.

The Old Covenant was for natural Israel. The New Covenant was to make
a new Creation, Spiritual Israel, the Church. Jesus was the One who would
bring it about. That's why we are called by His Name. Our natural fathers
gave us our natural name. Jesus begot us by the New Birth (Spiritual). He
gave us our new name.


The law was given for transgression until the "Seed", Jesus Christ could
come. He is the "Seed" that would bring blessings to all the families of hte
earth. He is the "Seed" that was sown in the earth. God wanted to bring
many sons into glory. Spiritual sons and daughters.

Falla39

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

The church was governed by elders, there's no mention of being runned by one leader. Not unless we add or assume things like with James in jerusalem.

In the same manner, you have to "ignore" and "assume" to come to your conclusion, but beyond that you have to exclude all of the Old Testament, which was the foreshadow of that which is to come -- that which we live in now, truth seeker.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

In the same manner, you have to "ignore" and "assume" to come to your conclusion, but beyond that you have to exclude all of the Old Testament, which was the foreshadow of that which is to come -- that which we live in now, truth seeker.

Addition to my thought:

It is interesting to me how many people on this forum have a "that was Old Testament" mentality as though the Old Testament does not apply to us today.

The conclusion is that we have Jesus and He somehow did away with the Old. But in John (I believe chapt 5) Jesus says that the religious leaders searched the scriptures thinking they had eternal life, but really what they were reading about was Him.

If Jesus knew what He was talking about then you can't separate the Old Testament from Jesus or as someone coined the phrase, "the old testament is the new testament concealed."

If you stop and think about it, one of the most prominent areas of the Old Testament is blood sacrifices. A blood sacrifice is needed just as much today as it was in the Old Testament. We just have the benefit in believing in Jesus' blood instead of bringing a new sacrifice.

If you really want to seek out truth, don't abandon that which was established just because you don't like it.

[Falla39]

2 Tim.3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, or
correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect (mature),
throughly furnished unto all good works.

1Cor. 15:
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

First the Old Covenant (natural) and then the New Covenant (spiritual).
Old man, natural birth, New man, New Birth.