Obama tying himself in knots with Rick Warren

[tstew]

Originally Posted by Ferd

we have made the round stew. if you cant be convinced that is your right. that wont make me stop respecting you.

I simply cannot buy into the notoin that because its been a long time and because mistakes have been made (and admitted to) that this is a reason to abandon a worthy cause by voting for people who are not only avowed abotion supporter but will go so far as infanticide to shield Roe.

that isnt something I can agree with.

Do you argue that GWB has been anything other than fantastically Pro-Life?

My point is that I have come to realize that we will not demand the results that we want and that we will be satisfied with the millions of murders as long as a politician says the right things. I am fully convinced that after 4 years of a McCain Presidency, we will be having the exact same debates and they will be playing the exact same cards.
And as far as Bush being fantastically "Pro-life" I am more concerned about the millions of babies who are unfantastically dead.

It's good to know that you respect me though .

I probably better quit posting about this though. I guess I get frustrated because I happen to belong to two demographics that in my opinion get played like a fiddle during election season and support based on issues that they don't see real results on. It just seems to me that politicians can pretty much pencil in their support no matter what and I just don't see a tremendous real-life return for the support in real-life.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by tstew

I read it and somehow it still doesn't change what I feel and posted about the millions who have been aborted...and the millions who will be aborted after we elect McCain.

So what do you think ought to be done about abortion? I have been intimately involved in the fight against abortion so I am aware of what is going on from a legal point. There is a thing called the rule of law in our country and laws change slowly, do you think abortion was legalized overnight?

Did you know that the Lady who was used to file the Roe lawsuit legalizing abortion stood in front of 70,000 people on Saturday and begged for forgiveness? And said she was used by those Democrats you seem to think will save us.


Things Republicans have done.

1. Appointing judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade and Planned parenthood v. Casey

2. Suing Planed Barronhood's security gaurds when they become overly aggressive with protestors (which gives us access to Planned Barrenhoods funds through the doctrine of Respondeat Superior)

3. Suing Planned Barronhood when they botch abortions and cause the young lady to be sterile

4. Successfully passing legislation banning partial birth abortion

5. Successfully defending that legislation in the SC with all 5 of the Justices who were in the majority being put there by Republicans.

6. Blocking funding of abortions with US tax dollars.

Again I ask you what should be done that we are not doing? And what will Democrats do?

[tstew]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

So what do you think ought to be done about abortion? I have been intimately involved in the fight against abortion so I am aware of what is going on from a legal point. There is a thing called the rule of law in our country and laws change slowly, do you think abortion was legalized overnight?

Did you know that the Lady who was used to file the Roe lawsuit legalizing abortion stood in front of 70,000 people on Saturday and begged for forgiveness? And said she was used by those Democrats you seem to think will save us.


Things Republicans have done.

1. Appointing judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade and Planned parenthood v. Casey

2. Suing Planed Barronhood's security gaurds when they become overly aggressive with protestors (which gives us access to Planned Barrenhoods funds through the doctrine of Respondeat Superior)

3. Suing Planned Barronhood when they botch abortions and cause the young lady to be sterile

4. Successfully passing legislation banning partial birth abortion

5. Successfully defending that legislation in the SC with all 5 of the Justices who were in the majority being put there by Republicans.

6. Blocking funding of abortions with US tax dollars.

Again I ask you what should be done that we are not doing? And what will Democrats do?

Baron, would you be so patient and understanding of the "system" if it were indeed a million 10 year olds being killed every year. My point is that abortion is either murder or it is not. If it is murder then I don't understand how we can have it be a central point of election after election without something actually substantial

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by tstew

Baron, would you be so patient and understanding of the "system" if it were indeed a million 10 year olds being killed every year. My point is that abortion is either murder or it is not. If it is murder then I don't understand how we can have it be a central point of election after election without something actually substantial

Your avoiding the question.

Are you suggesting we resort to violence?

or are you suggesting it is not murder?

You also are burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge how much has been done.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by tstew

Baron, would you be so patient and understanding of the "system" if it were indeed a million 10 year olds being killed every year. My point is that abortion is either murder or it is not. If it is murder then I don't understand how we can have it be a central point of election after election without something actually substantial

if a smooth 50% of the population thought it was fine to kill 10 year olds, and it was legal to kill 10 year olds, I suspect it would take a good bit of time to get rid of the practice.

in this case somewhere around 60% of Americans thing some form of abortion should be legal. actually that number may be higher.

for what ever reason, those who support abortion on demand (up to and including the ninth month) have convinced more than half the country that Roe protects that basic premis.... thus the decades old battle.

[tstew]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Your avoiding the question.

Are you suggesting we resort to violence?

or are you suggesting it is not murder?

You also are burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge how much has been done.

I am not avoiding the question. I have answered it a million times. I have said that we should be demanding specific actions as a prerequisite for our support based on this issue...then holding those people accountable if they do not execute. Millions of people are going to vote their conscious in this area and noone is saying what they demand to have happen.
You tell me exactly what McCain is going to deliver and what we are holding them responsible for and when it is going to happen...then I'll talk about the issue of abortion in election.
And maybe you can tell me now exactly what is going to happen in the next four years under McCain so that I can mark it down and then tell you that you were right whenever it does happen.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by tstew

I am not avoiding the question. I have answered it a million times. I have said that we should be demanding specific actions as a prerequisite for our support based on this issue...then holding those people accountable if they do not execute. Millions of people are going to vote their conscious in this area and noone is saying what they demand to have happen.
You tell me exactly what McCain is going to deliver and what we are holding them responsible for and when it is going to happen...then I'll talk about the issue of abortion in election.
And maybe you can tell me now exactly what is going to happen in the next four years under McCain so that I can mark it down and then tell you that you were right whenever it does happen.

You didn't answer the question do you think abortion is murder. I am interested in knowing your position on this.

If McCain is elected you will see a swing in the court that will amaze you. With 4 and 1/2 justices we are making headway, just think what we could do with 5 or 6 to undo the damage that has been done. I know I have said this before but Jay Sekulow says this all the time, "All you have to do to win at the Supreme Court is count to 5."

[tstew]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

You didn't answer the question do you think abortion is murder. I am interested in knowing your position on this.

If McCain is elected you will see a swing in the court that will amaze you. With 4 and 1/2 justices we are making headway, just think what we could do with 5 or 6 to undo the damage that has been done. I know I have said this before but Jay Sekulow says this all the time, "All you have to do to win at the Supreme Court is count to 5."

Oh, I didn't realize that that was the question you were asking. Yes, I absolutely think that abortion is murder and that is why I refuse to look at abortion numbers as stats and prefer to approach this as if 1 million 10 year olds were being murdered every year.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by tstew

Oh, I didn't realize that that was the question you were asking. Yes, I absolutely think that abortion is murder and that is why I refuse to look at abortion numbers as stats and prefer to approach this as if 1 million 10 year olds were being murdered every year.

Then the question I would ask you is what are YOU doing about it?

[tstew]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Then the question I would ask you is what are YOU doing about it?

I am trying to stop politicians from using hot-button issues to their advantage all the while secure in their knowledge that they really don't have to do much. My problem is that I am not in the position of power to directly combat this, but hundreds of "pro-life" leaders are...they just are not required to. The campaign button is sufficient.

Baron, you said that I am burying my head in the sand and not acknowledging how much has been done. What I say is that what has actually been done is disproportionate to how much is said in this area every election. It is always a key platform position for decades now, and I personally do not believe that what has actually been done is proportionate to the support that many politicians have received primarily based on this issue...And I feel that hundreds of thousands of souls bear this out every year.