Abolishing guns reduces crime??

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It’s obvious that he’s on the slippery slope of justifying Christian tyranny at the order of the state.

Here the author’s position makes the Christian indebted to the soldier, the thug of the state…

This article was flimsy…and that’s being gracious. This man is dangerous and his position renders the Christian a pawn of the state and a lover of the sword.

Whatever. Go sit in the middle of the freeway and God will protect you. You discount the references to the use of weapons in Scripture both old and new, and then claim victory because no one can show you Christians resisted. Your argument is a joke.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Ferd

allowing a child to be hurt will get you in trouble with God.

No one should "allow" anyone to be hurt. The issue is using lethal force. If as a Christian you have tried to escape with the child, trick the attacker, subdue the attacker with non-lethal force...you've done about all you an do within the limits of Christian ethos. To kill the attacker might be justified...but it isn't preferable or Scriptural.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No one should "allow" anyone to be hurt. The issue is using lethal force. If as a Christian you have tried to escape with the child, trick the attacker, subdue the attacker with non-lethal force...you've done about all you an do within the limits of Christian ethos. To kill the attacker might be justified...but it isn't preferable or Scriptural.

What? Is this a chink in Aquila's armour? You aren't actually saying you believe in justifiable homicide are you?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Rico

Aquila, it's not up to God, Brother. Man still has free will. God can no more control a criminal than He could stop me from completely walking away from Him. This is what guys like you don't seem to understand.

There are thousands of testimonies about miraculous deliverances, changes of mind, etc. that have caused an attacker to spare their victim. You’re God is indeed capable of controlling all things…the blade of grass doesn’t bend with the wind unless he permits it. And while you might walk away…God knows exactly what it will take to bring you back…and protect you while you’re away from him. In fact…we have often argued over what if a man dies on his way to be baptized, is he lost?….most answer, “God is able to protect him until he’s baptized.” Well…which is it? LOL

I saw a program on MSNBC the other night about 5 friends who were all in the same house one night. At least two of these people were Christians, because they made the point that they had decided to keep their friendship as just friends because they both were considering different areas of ministry. Well, a knock came at the door, someone answered it, and two guys forced their way into the house. They eventually raped the two women, forced the three men in the house to have sex with the women too, then proceeded to take them all out into the country and shoot them in the head. Four of them died. This is the world we live in, Aquila. There's no doubt in my mind that God could have somehow supernaturally prevented these criminals from committing those horrible crimes. Guess what? He didn't. That's reality, Brother. God did not stop those criminals from shooting all five of those young people.

This might sound hard to receive…but there is a purpose in God allowing that to happen. Nothing happened that night that didn’t pass over God’s desk. One of those murderers might be sent to prison and meet an Apostolic preacher and get really saved. Then reach people in the system that we could never reach. Out of the deaths of five denominational Christians, 20 or more people might be saved with the real deal.
Don’t limit God.

I'd rather have to deal with the consequences of knowing I killed a man intent on hurting my family than living with the guilt and shame of knowing I did nothing while someone violated them. Call it sin. Call it being a boy. Call it whatever you want to call it. My job is to keep them from harm. If that means killing someone who wants to hurt them, then so be it. If someone tries to hurt my family they had better be prepared to die for them because I am more than willing to kill for them.

Here’s the problem. You’re assuming that the choice is between “doing nothing” and killing. My point is that in most circumstances there are other options not involving lethal force. Escape is preferable to killing. Tricking is preferable to killing. Using non-lethal physical force is preferable to killing. You’re really jumping to an extreme. I might take a man’s knee caps out with a ball bat…but I wouldn’t want to blow his head off.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Rico

What? Is this a chink in Aquila's armour? You aren't actually saying you believe in justifiable homicide are you?

Legally it might be justifiable. However, ethically, as a Christian I pursue non-lethal measures of defense.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There are thousands of testimonies about miraculous deliverances, changes of mind, etc. that have caused an attacker to spare their victim. You’re God is indeed capable of controlling all things…the blade of grass doesn’t bend with the wind unless he permits it. And while you might walk away…God knows exactly what it will take to bring you back…and protect you while you’re away from him. In fact…we have often argued over what if a man dies on his way to be baptized, is he lost?….most answer, “God is able to protect him until he’s baptized.” Well…which is it? LOL


No one is saying God has never intervened, Aquila. If you want to take that chance with the lives of your family, knock yourself out. Don't tell me I am a boy for seeing it the way I see it, however. Them's fightin words. Everything within me says to protect my family at all costs. If that means taking someone out, then I am willing to go that far, and don't see it as a lack of faith in the slightest, Bro.

This might sound hard to receive…but there is a purpose in God allowing that to happen. Nothing happened that night that didn’t pass over God’s desk. One of those murderers might be sent to prison and meet an Apostolic preacher and get really saved. Then reach people in the system that we could never reach. Out of the deaths of five denominational Christians, 20 or more people might be saved with the real deal.
Don’t limit God.

So, what you are saying is that God orchestrated the deaths of these four individuals on the off chance that maybe one of the two murderers will someday repent, be baptized in Jesus name, and receive the Holy Ghost. Can you see how flawed your reasoning is on this, Aquila? It wasn't God's will for these people to be tortured and murdered this way! What kind of idiotic nonsense is that? God can turn this situation around for His good, but I don't believe for a second that He orchestrated it.

Here’s the problem. You’re assuming that the choice is between “doing nothing” and killing. My point is that in most circumstances there are other options not involving lethal force. Escape is preferable to killing. Tricking is preferable to killing. Using non-lethal physical force is preferable to killing. You’re really jumping to an extreme. I might take a man’s knee caps out with a ball bat…but I wouldn’t want to blow his head off.

There may very well be other options. Every situation is different, and I don't see anyone advocating shooting burglars on sight (except for maybe our friends from Texas).

[Tyk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Legally it might be justifiable. However, ethically, as a Christian I pursue non-lethal measures of defense.

I'm a Texan, and my father is definitely at Texan. I don't "fear" guns or think they are a bad thing. I practice what I know of tae kwon do, grappling(amature type stuff) and would love to learn more of the arts, and other styles as well. I work out and try to stay in shape. It's my newish "hobby" so to speak. -just some background.

Sadly what Aquila is saying is something I wrestle with.

On one hand I can completely understand with the desire to shoot, and even kill with even little remorse, feeling justified with my actions.

Just as he said though, I feel God is in ultimate control. So should I sit there and not react? Should I not flee if I can? Why flee if God is there to protect me?

I think not, I must do something! (unless I got a clear voice from God telling me not too!). Non-lethal force would always be an option to me. I would prefer to be able to flee, talk them down, via scripture/reasoning, prayer, and other options that have been discussed. It might be prossible that I might kill someone in a state of panic as a result of physical force. (not saying i'm some deadly ninja haha) I feel God would forgive me for that, and know that in my heart that wasn't my intentions. I would regret it, but feel forgiven.

I am not so worried for myself as to "fight" or repel an attacker with force - But when I am married, that will change somewhat. THIS is where the carnal side( as I see it ) comes out. I can have faith and trust that I would be willing to die rather than to Kill a sinner (even though that sounds... kinda nutty). But as to my wife? Were she to be in danger or being ready to be victimized, I would have a serious urge to stop the attacker, whatever the cost. I would hope and pray that I would be as non-lethal, anti kill as possible. - I totally feel this side of me is the fleshly side and is not spirit led.

I understand it is my duty as the man to "protect" in a sense. She will by my jewel and my love. I just know I have to do what is right in the eyes of God no matter the cost. And I pray in my life I never have a circumstance that requires any of the above.

I know in my heart I need more prayer and direction as to what God would want me to do in this situation.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Rico

There may very well be other options. Every situation is different, and I don't see anyone advocating shooting burglars on sight (except for maybe our friends from Texas).

God can and will often provide a way of escape. But I don't believe it is His will that a criminal harms me or my family. If I have the means to protect them, I believe it is my duty to.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

God can and will often provide a way of escape. But I don't believe it is His will that a criminal harms me or my family. If I have the means to protect them, I believe it is my duty to.

I threw that in there to poke a little fun at you Texans. lol I see you took the bait!

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Rico

I threw that in there to poke a little fun at you Texans. lol I see you took the bait!

It has been a reality to me Rico, if I had the means then, I am not really sure what would have happened. I would rather not have to take another's life. But I think it is inherent in most of us to save ourselves or our families from harm.