Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I'm not a brother. ...and I've been spending too much time in forums. I'll pass on starting a thread.

Sorry ...sis ..... Woops ... eh .. uh ...

*gently takes foot out of his mouth*

Seagrave's ... IMHO is more solid .... doctrinally.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Sorry ...sis ..... Woops ... eh .. uh ...

*gently takes foot out of his mouth*

Seagrave's ... IMHO is more solid .... doctrinally.

Seagraves and Bernard each have a book on Romans. I have them both. But I want to read Luther first.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Seagraves and Bernard each have a book on Romans. I have them both. But I want to read Luther first.

If you want real diversity ... examine John Calvin's commentary on the book also ....

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment...38/htm/TOC.htm

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

TBP,

It's a myth that you are suggesting when you label me with a 'works-are-bad' doctrine .. if you think I don't believe in good works .... you're MISTAKEN ... GRIEVOUSLY!!!

Our works validate, or show real, our faith ... all of our works ....

They do not, baptism included, cause salvation or qualify us for salvation .... as your doctrine suggests.

Our works are results of our faith in the SALVATION HE AFFORDED .... they follow our belief...

They are fruit of his righteousness ... not ours ....

Dan,
My present assessment of the much words you put forth is this:
You do not see a scriptural witness of a God-ordained agreement between the provider's command and the recipient's response.

this despite....
God parted the Red Sea AND the children of Israel had to walk through it.
God provided the manna AND the children of Israel had to collect it every non-sabbath morning.
God provided an alter of sacrafice and a brazen laver AND the children of Israel had to sacrafice their best and the tabernacle priest had to wash that they die not.

The OT and NT were certainly both established on Righteousness by 'alive' Faith. Righteousness was NOT imputed to Abraham WHEN he heard God's instruction but when he responded, believing the invisible God.

Is obedience a work? Please Dan, no thanks, I am not buying what you are selling.
What scriptural witness do we have where God has provided that does not require some act of agreement [WORK] on our part to receive.

Dan, your gospel is flawed in that it does not understand the inseparable linkage between our faith (hearing the command of God) and our works (responding to the instruction of the command).
James simply could not be any more plain.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The scripture instructs us that, "You have not because you don't ask, and when you do ask, you ask amiss, intending to consume it on your own lust!

Would the gospel of Dan say...
"hold it God, you are not going to force me to do any work! How do I know what to ask for? Dan's salvation is by faith only. Works are certainly not needed for any thing that applies to my salvation. I know this to be so, because this is what I say!

I presently REJECT the gospel of DAN.

Where do you find any scriptural theme or principle involving God and his deliverance that does not require some action on the part of the hearer? Even if the action is to STAND STILL.

What we do IN RESPONSE TO HEARING is what JUSTIFIES US by witnessing to God that we BELIEVE what we heard; that we are in agreement with what he said.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Dan,
My present assessment of the much words you put forth is this:
You do not see a scriptural witness of a God-ordained agreement between the provider's command and the recipient's response.

this despite....
God parted the Red Sea AND the children of Israel had to walk through it.
God provided the manna AND the children of Israel had to collect it every non-sabbath morning.
God provided an alter of sacrafice and a brazen laver AND the children of Israel had to sacrafice their best and the tabernacle priest had to wash that they die not.

The OT and NT were certainly both established on Righteousness by 'alive' Faith. Righteousness was NOT imputed to Abraham WHEN he heard God's instruction but when he responded, believing the invisible God.

Is obedience a work? Please Dan, no thanks, I am not buying what you are selling.
What scriptural witness do we have where God has provided that does not require some act of agreement [WORK] on our part to receive.

Dan, your gospel is flawed in that it does not understand the inseparable linkage between our faith (hearing the command of God) and our works (responding to the instruction of the command).
James simply could not be any more plain.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The scripture instructs us that, "You have not because you don't ask, and when you do ask, you ask amiss, intending to consume it on your own lust!

Would the gospel of Dan say...
"hold it God, you are not going to force me to do any work! How do I know what to ask for? Dan's salvation is by faith only. Works are certainly not needed for any thing that applies to my salvation. I know this to be so, because this is what I say!

I presently REJECT the gospel of DAN.

Where do you find any scriptural theme or principle involving God and his deliverance that does not require some action on the part of the hearer? Even if the action is to STAND STILL.

What we do IN RESPONSE TO HEARING is what JUSTIFIES US by witnessing to God that we BELIEVE what we heard; that we are in agreement with what he said.

TBP,

You're misinterpretation of works is founded on a works-based salvation model.

You are trying to link James 2 which speaks of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac to a faulty statement you made that circumcision saved Abraham.

If you would like to discuss James 2 in another thread I will gladly engage it.
I most certainly recognize the linkage between faith and works in my previous post.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ in the good news of HIS DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION .... ONCE AND FOR ALL .... something you would like to RE-ENACT ...

NT and OT were saved by grace, through faith ... evident by obedience ...

If the sins of the OT were "remitted" at Calvary ... I have to believe in this better New Convenant they are "remitted" at Calvary also ... not in a "magical" application of blood in the baptismal waters ... as espoused by the Gospel of TB.

I reject the Gospel of TB.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Dan,
My present assessment of the much words you put forth is this:
You do not see a scriptural witness of a God-ordained agreement between the provider's command and the recipient's response.

this despite....
God parted the Red Sea AND the children of Israel had to walk through it.
God provided the manna AND the children of Israel had to collect it every non-sabbath morning.
God provided an alter of sacrafice and a brazen laver AND the children of Israel had to sacrafice their best and the tabernacle priest had to wash that they die not.

The OT and NT were certainly both established on Righteousness by 'alive' Faith. Righteousness was NOT imputed to Abraham WHEN he heard God's instruction but when he responded, believing the invisible God.

Is obedience a work? Please Dan, no thanks, I am not buying what you are selling.
What scriptural witness do we have where God has provided that does not require some act of agreement [WORK] on our part to receive.

Dan, your gospel is flawed in that it does not understand the inseparable linkage between our faith (hearing the command of God) and our works (responding to the instruction of the command).
James simply could not be any more plain.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The scripture instructs us that, "You have not because you don't ask, and when you do ask, you ask amiss, intending to consume it on your own lust!

Would the gospel of Dan say...
"hold it God, you are not going to force me to do any work! How do I know what to ask for? Dan's salvation is by faith only. Works are certainly not needed for any thing that applies to my salvation. I know this to be so, because this is what I say!

I presently REJECT the gospel of DAN.

Where do you find any scriptural theme or principle involving God and his deliverance that does not require some action on the part of the hearer? Even if the action is to STAND STILL.

What we do IN RESPONSE TO HEARING is what JUSTIFIES US by witnessing to God that we BELIEVE what we heard; that we are in agreement with what he said.

Romans 4 does not agree with you tbpew. vs 10 and 11

Rightousness came to Abraham when he believed, fo rhis believing, not when he recieveved the seal.

His circumcission was , I think some 14 years later. 14 years or 14 days..no matter. Rightouness was imputed to him for his belief or faith, NOT for his works.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Romans 4 does not agree with you tbpew. vs 10 and 11

Rightousness came to Abraham when he believed, fo rhis believing, not when he recieveved the seal.

His circumcission was , I think some 14 years later. 14 years or 14 days..no matter. Rightouness was imputed to him for his belief or faith, NOT for his works.

Genesis 15:6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

True belief ... as expressed in the bible as a clinging trust/faith, came first ... it was counted to him for righteousness then ....

Then came the fruit of this divine righteousness .... works of living faith.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

TBP,

You're misinterpretation of works is founded on a works-base salvation.

You are trying to link James 2 which speaks of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac to a faulty statement you made that circumcision saved Abraham.

If you would like to discuss James 2 in another thread I will gladly engage it.
I most certainly recognize the linkage between faith and works in my previous post.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ in the good news of HIS DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION .... ONCE AND FOR ALL .... something you would like to RE-ENACT ...

NT and OT were saved by grace, through faith ... evident by obedience ...

If the sins of the OT were "remitted" at Calvary ... I have to believe in this better New Convenant they are "remitted" at Calvary also ... not in a "magical" application of blood in the baptismal waters ... as espoused by the Gospel of TB.

I reject the Gospel of TB.

Dan,
I am presently quite content to be a messenger of a divergent viewpoint from yours. I hope it challenges and provokes thought to those who consider this topical area in application of the scriptural witness.

We are justified (made righteous) by the putting off of the deeds of the flesh.
PUTTING OFF
PUTTING OFF
PUTTING OFF
is that a work? Of course it is.

It is a work experienced by living in agreement with the faith that has been sourced in the Word of God that we have heard.

If you will not allow space in your thinking for Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47, Col 2:11-12, 1Pt 3:20-21, and James Chapter 2 as a witness of operation of water baptism as our work in agreement with God's command, AND the role it effects in our deliverance from the bondage of sin, the body of the sins of the flesh, I leave you to your own interpretations of so great a cloud of witnesses.

My rejection of your gospel is because I believe your words are a snare that will ultimately trap little ones into concluding that there is no God-sanctioned operation that occurs in water baptism.

The gospel of Dan reduces water baptism to an outward sign of inward change, commanded for some completely mysterious unknown purpose in the mind of God.

It certainly will not be long before your use of the words "commandment" associated with "water baptism" will be lost in some unfolding form of acrobatic exegisis.

[freeatlast]

Yes..faith..witout works is dead. non existant.

All that I do...baptism/ evangelism/ community work/ communion/ I do out of love for the one who saved me by his grace. Not out of Obligation but rather out of gratitiude.

It does make a difference, obligation or gratitude.

Do I believe in baptism? YES ! EVERY and i mean every Christian should and will be baptized....BECAUSE of the remission of their sins, NOT for the remission of their sins.

It is representive of our spiritual covenamt with God as circummsionion was in the OT.

The circumcision in the OT did not give them their rightousness, Belief/Trust/Faith did that. Circummcision was the seal or sign of their covenant with God.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Dan,
I am presently quite content to be a messenger of a divergent viewpoint from yours. I hope it challenges and provokes thought to those who consider this topical area in application of the scriptural witness.

We are justified (made righteous) by the putting off of the deeds of the flesh.
PUTTING OFF
PUTTING OFF
PUTTING OFF
is that a work? Of course it is.

It is a work experienced by living in agreement with the faith that has been sourced in the Word of God that we have heard.

If you will not allow space in your thinking for Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47, Col 2:11-12, 1Pt 3:20-21, and James Chapter 2 as a witness of operation of water baptism as our work in agreement with God's command, AND the role it effects in our deliverance from the bondage of sin, the body of the sins of the flesh, I leave you to your own interpretations of so great a cloud of witnesses.

My rejection of your gospel is because I believe your words are a snare that will ultimately trap little ones into concluding that there is no God-sanctioned operation that occurs in water baptism.

The gospel of Dan reduces water baptism to an outward sign of inward change, commanded for some completely mysterious unknown purpose in the mind of God.

It certainly will not be long before your use of the words "commandment" associated with "water baptism" will be lost in some unfolding form of acrobatic exegisis.

We are justified (made righteous) by the putting off of the deeds of the flesh.
PUTTING OFF
PUTTING OFF
PUTTING OFF
is that a work? Of course it is.

Wow!! You finally let the cat out of the bag!!!! This confirms everything.

You believe you are justified by your works ... it's anti-biblical. False doctrine.