Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

It is a crime, it is welfare fraud.... you are not supposed to be drawing a cash benefit for welfare if a father/male is in the household who is able to work.

In this case, the women would have been lying to welfare caseworkers...giving false information on the application. Also, I would fault the caseworkers for not realizing the address or looking into the situation where so many women were drawing benefits yet there were men there.

I personally haven't been on any type of assistance for over 4 years now...however... our State is strict with this stuff. I was drawing food stamps only as I worked full time but still had difficulty making ends meet back in 03. I had a caseworker actually visit my home to do a house/situation assessment. I am not sure how often these are made, but it was an interesting interview. She came from the State and ended up coming to my work... I didn't have anything to hide and of course I was legit and everything went smoothly.... that was food stamps only.. so I can't imagine if I had been drawing a cash benefit.

It is states that need to reform their welfare program...

4Ever I actually do agree. I guess I am pointing out they are not unlike many many others I know personally.

[Hoovie]

Bless You 4ever1 You are a great example of proper, temporary use of the system.

[The Mrs]

One thing that struck me while catching up on this thread this morning...do the authorities bother the Amish communities? Are they practicing anything that is against the laws of the land?

Not that I know of or have ever heard about. They are peaceful law-abiding citizens. They are left alone to practice how they deem appropriate.

I don't think we need to fear the government getting out of hand and stripping us of our religious freedoms.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

Thankful for States like mine that require a woman to seek employment or go to school while on welfare. They monitor it and you have to show proof of your job hunt.. interviews or applications for employment. Failure to comply results in taken off the program. You also have a lifetime benefit of 2 years to draw welfare in our state.

I spent about 3 months on our state welfare system.. for three kids, the cash benefit was $346 a month and food stamps and of course Medicaid. That is not enough to live on, and I can't understand for the life of me how people would want to live that way.

The state was paid back with the first tax refund my ex husband tried to claim on a federal return. Which is the way it should be.

I think we need more laws like that. It's also good to hear that your stay on the system was only temporary.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

From what I'm finding the legal age of marriage in ancient Judaism was 12 for females and 14 for males, but only with parental permission.

Just out of curiosity, have you been around many 12 to 14 year old girls? In our culture, the idea of children that age bearing children, or marrying, is, and should be repugnant. I have sheltered my daughter quite a bit, but still, even if a girl has led a hard life, the idea that she is ready or capable of maintaining a marriage or raising a child is just dumb, IMO. I do know girls who have gotten pregnant at those ages, and either given the babies up for adoption or family members have wound up raising the babies. My daughter is 20 now, and I think barely at the age when she should even start considering marriage.

The girls from this compound have of course been raised in an entirely different situation, but that doesn't make it acceptable. These are children, and they deserve to have a childhood.

Originally Posted by cneasttx

I am pretty sure the girl must be 18 at least without parental permission. I have heard of girls as young as 16 getting married with parental permission.

I was married in CA at age 17 (barely, two weeks after my seventeenth birthday). I had to go before a judge with my parents to receive approval from the state to be legally married.

Was I ready to married at that age? I was physically capable and emotionally stable, yes. Should I have been married at that age? No, I gave away part of my childhood, formative years that should have been spent on developing my mind, identity and character.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

One thing that struck me while catching up on this thread this morning...do the authorities bother the Amish communities? Are they practicing anything that is against the laws of the land?

Not that I know of or have ever heard about. They are peaceful law-abiding citizens. They are left alone to practice how they deem appropriate.

I don't think we need to fear the government getting out of hand and stripping us of our religious freedoms.

I think you are totally correct, this case has little to do with religious freedom, and much to do with abuse.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

One thing that struck me while catching up on this thread this morning...do the authorities bother the Amish communities? Are they practicing anything that is against the laws of the land?

Not that I know of or have ever heard about. They are peaceful law-abiding citizens. They are left alone to practice how they deem appropriate.

I don't think we need to fear the government getting out of hand and stripping us of our religious freedoms.

You are right, they are peaceful and law abiding... I think that is the difference. Amish doesn't depend upon government or take advantage of it.

I don't think we really have anything to fear either. We may be turning to a Godless society, but at least most still value freedom.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by dizzyde

Just out of curiosity, have you been around many 12 to 14 year old girls? In our culture, the idea of children that age bearing children, or marrying, is, and should be repugnant. I have sheltered my daughter quite a bit, but still, even if a girl has led a hard life, the idea that she is ready or capable of maintaining a marriage or raising a child is just dumb, IMO. I do know girls who have gotten pregnant at those ages, and either given the babies up for adoption or family members have wound up raising the babies. My daughter is 20 now, and I think barely at the age when she should even start considering marriage.

Amen. I think it’s our advanced and modern culture that makes marriage at such a young age problematic. But what I’m wondering is what about communities like this one and the Amish where life is quite different and far closer to what it used to be an agricultural America? In these communities women are expected to primarily be a wife, mother, and perhaps be industrious with textiles or a domestic trade. In New York City it would doom a woman to a life of poverty and God knows what if she was to marry at 14. However, in an Amish or FLDS community it provides a degree of security and social status. As I was just realizing that I’m measuring them up to my way of life in Dayton Ohio. At first it looks like these girls have been abused and perhaps cheated of their childhood. But…then I began to think, this is their culture. Most were born into this community or come from other FLDS communities and their marrying may be a step up from where they previously stood in regards to their community. Yes, like anyone in their right mind, I wince at the idea of an older man and a 14 or 15 year old girl…but in their eyes and according to their custom this isn’t all that strange. It’s still against the Law and the Law has to be enforced. I just realized that I was making strong moral judgments against them in my mind before actually considering what their world may actually be like.

I had watched an interview with another FLDS sect in the area and the patriarch was asked about the bed in the temple. I think the majority of Americans naturally assumed the bed was used to abuse young girls…but this man said that the bed was most likely for whoever was care taker of the temple. I’m not convinced that everything was kosher…but I was confronted with how quickly I judged them when I considered that most houses of worship of that nature have private quarters for the priest or care taker. I’d have to know, is there a care taker? Is the duty of care taking a rotation? Is there a reason why the care taker would need to possible stay over night at the temple? And then I’d have to speak to someone who served or was serving as a care taker. I don’t know about y’all, but I assumed the worst rather quickly.

The girls from this compound have of course been raised in an entirely different situation, but that doesn't make it acceptable. These are children, and they deserve to have a childhood.

I would tend to agree. However, I wonder if “childhood” in their community’s culture is better than marriage? Sure if their childhood was one of school, video games, dolls, movies, sleepovers, etc. I would instantly agree. But “childhood” for someone in there culture may be rather regimented and full of a significant degree of hard work. Being a wife and a mother may be an improvement for them.

Please don’t misinterpret me sis…I’m just looking at it from different angles.

Add to all this that the initial phone call claiming abuse is becoming more and more questionable. This may have been instigated, not by a young girl who was married to an older man…but by someone who took it upon themselves to provoke the authorities to harass this community.

Have they verified anything regarding the initial complaint?

But I agree, those married should at least be of the legal age to marry, for the sake of obey the laws of the land at the very least.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by dizzyde

I think you are totally correct, this case has little to do with religious freedom, and much to do with abuse.

I think it could be viewed as a cultural collision. Maybe in their community it would be better for these young people to be married than unmarried. I might not know enough about their culture. I wouldn’t be surprised if childhood among them is rather rough and marriage is viewed by the women as an elevation in social status and respect. Then we have to ask ourselves is their culture overall outdated and abusive because it lends itself to encouraging marriage at a younger age or if it is a different cultural norm that should be respected in a unique way. But the issue remains…the Law is the Law. If they are underage certainly their community should obey the law at least if they don’t want to face this type of thing.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

Thankful for States like mine that require a woman to seek employment or go to school while on welfare. They monitor it and you have to show proof of your job hunt.. interviews or applications for employment. Failure to comply results in taken off the program. You also have a lifetime benefit of 2 years to draw welfare in our state.

I spent about 3 months on our state welfare system.. for three kids, the cash benefit was $346 a month and food stamps and of course Medicaid. That is not enough to live on, and I can't understand for the life of me how people would want to live that way.

The state was paid back with the first tax refund my ex husband tried to claim on a federal return. Which is the way it should be.

Sister, some of those rules have changed. For example, my wife was exempt from the looking for work provision because of the age of our youngest daughter. I, however, had to be actively looking for work and participating in a program sponsored by the State for people on welfare. The only other exemption from looking for work within this program is if you are getting a GED. There used to be an exemption if you were in college, but they've taken that exemption away.