Have any of you ever thought about the fact that a woman who preaches, teaches, prophesies, etc under the authority of her pastor has not execised any authority other than what has been granted to her by the "authority" that we are all to be subject to.......the Pastor.
Sounds interesting, but you have no Biblical standard for what you are presenting above? Jesus sent out His apostles two by two, and who was over whom? Even though it may sound interesting concerning Biblical reality it is only an opinion.
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Originally Posted by bishoph
In 1 Ti 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach, on her own authority over a man" On her own authority would be where we get the idea of "forced" authority.
Could you please produce the Greek text where you found the above?
Are you now using conjecture to argue your position? I have to tell you that what you're saying above is NOT found in any Greek I have ever seen, but I would be interested to see if what you're saying has any back up from any Lexicon, dictionary, or translation.
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Originally Posted by bishoph
In other words she is not submitted to anyone and no one has extended her the "right" to speak. However, when she is submitted to authority and that authority gives her the ok she is not speaking of her own accord but by the same spirit as her leader.
Sounds quite fabulous, but when in Sam Hill did you come up with it?
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Originally Posted by bishoph
Remember it is like the hair issue (as he ducks to avoid the sledge hammers) and many others that we build a doctrine on from one scripture yet we warn others not to build a doctrine on one isolated scripture.
Sorry, but what you're saying is very unfair in light of the many scriptural posts that were presented in this thread. Instead of coming up with what you posted here, you may have taken a shot at what was already posted.
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Originally Posted by bishoph
(I know on women and silence some of you think there are at least 2) However, when you compare all of scripture with Paul's statements you must conclude that either he was trying to establish something new for the Church age, or we may not have a proper understanding of what he was addressing in the Corinthian church.
There is no doubt to what Paul is writing in Timothy because Paul mentions Eve. Paul is showing how Eve's tutorial with the Serpent ended in disaster, and so as to not allowing it to happen again Paul issues orders to insure that no women teach adult men, married or un-married.
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Originally Posted by bishoph
If you study church history you will find that in Corinth as in many Synagogues they had gender separated seating with (depending on which historical account you rely on) the men on the ground floor and the women in an upper balcony. According to MANY historians what apparently happened was that while the preacher/teacher was speaking the women would interrupt and ask questions of clarification and sometimes nearly open debate concerning the preaching. Thus Paul's instruction in 1Cor. 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (This is not speculation this is historical fact according to church historians)
Many historians? Really, do you happen to know which of the many came up with the above story? This is also where you prove my point. Why were the women segregated in the first place? Doesn't even seem as if they were on common ground with the men, so why would a class of people who are segregated be teachers to those they were separated from? I think you should ponder that wee bit of information. Also do yourself a favor and do some research on the historian who came up with your segregated church house and the bantering beauties.
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Originally Posted by bishoph
You cannot have it both ways either a woman can prophecy=preach or she must be silent never uttering a sound while in the assembly of the righteous. JMHO
Titus saves the Sisters from the fate you chose them in your latter, as for your former a woman can teach but those she teaches cannot be adult married and single men.
Artistic license? Now that's funny. I took no artistic license. I said that Deborah encouraged Barak and that she went with him. I see no "artistic license" with that.
Encouraged Barak? Sister you're the only one I have ever heard such a statement come from. Therefore we can safely say that the Deborah encouraging Barak argument is clearly your own invention.
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Originally Posted by Felicity
Sure, no problem. Scriptures here clearly back me up. This is the way the Bible presents it......
Deborah told Barak to obey what God had called him to do & reminded him of God's promise to him which would have sure enough been an "encouragement".
Jdg 4:6 - 7: And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.
Deborah did NOT lead the army. Barak did, but Deborah went along with him - as encouragement and strength .... and who knows? Maybe to make sure he didn't go chickening out (little artistic license there maybe ).
Jdg. 4:9-10: And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.
And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.
Deborah encouraged Barak again in verse 14 by reminding him that victory was promised and that the Lord had gone before him.....
Jdg 4:14 And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee?
My lands it's only two chapters and you think that Deborah was Barak's cheerleader? Well, I must say you have taken the warrior Deborah and reduced her to a woman who encouraged one man to lead an army?
"And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him."
First thing that happens is that Deborah reminds Barak that the Lord had spoken to him prior to Deborah speaking to him.
Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Deborah also tells Barak that the Lord promised to..."deliver him into thine hand"
Barak makes his mistake at this point..."Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go."
Barak didn't ask Deborah to lead the armies or anything in the way of military leadership, he just wanted her to be their as insurance that God would do as He promised.
She said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.
Being killed by a woman wasn't a good thing. What Deborah tells Barak is not a very promising out look. That due to his lack of listening to God and choosing to have Deborah along for the ride Barak would have to share his victory with a woman. Not very encouraging so far.
Quoting "and Deborah went up with him" doesn't make me think that Barak is being encouraged by all of this.
Barak and Deborah are not a story forth with encouragement. Sister why is Deborah not found in Hebrews 11?
__________________ "Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
The question that was asked was do you believe in women preachers? I must say that I do because if it wasn't for a women preacher I would not have the rich Apostolic Pentecostal heritage that I have. If it wasn't for a women preacher our large family and several other families in the Kanawha City/Charleston, WV area would not be saved. That women was my great grand mother, a Baptist women who knew there was more and wanted all God had for. God filled her with the Holy Ghost and she was kicked out of the Baptist church. My great grand mother was the first Apostolic pastor in the Charleston, WV area.
Please let me preface this post and the rest that will follow with regard to this thread and my discussion with you EB. I enjoy a healthy debate of scripture, my posts are not intended to demean you or any other poster in a personal fashion. Having said that, please do not resort to your usual rhetoric and placing people in the "you can believe a lie and be lost" category just because they disagree with you. I will respect your opinion and attempt to disprove it where applicable. Above all else let us be civil in this discourse or I will end it immediately from my side.
Incidentally this is not an bishoph/EB only debate all others may still participate. With any luck we might be able to rescue our dear EB and bring him into the ark of safety. lol J/K
Alright EB, I realize that this will be a futile attempt to enlighten you by rightly dividing the Word, as I believe your mind is already made up and I am not sure if you even desire to know the truth as much as you desire to argue your viewpoint.
But here goes a point by point dismantling of your tirade. I am starting with this latest post because it starts at the second mention of prophetess in the Bible, thus we need to establish from here the role of this woman which by the law of first mention (as it relates to her role) we can establish a Biblical precedent. (BTW the first mention is Miriam and she sings a song to Israel. When you study the songs they sang you find that they were really sermons/testimonies about God which were sung in responsive poses, she definitely was speaking to men and women.)
"And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him."
First thing that happens is that Deborah reminds Barak that the Lord had spoken to him prior to Deborah speaking to him.
This is incorrect! Deborah does not remind him of something God said to him before she began prophesying to him. let us go back and look at the first part of the chapter.
Judges 4:1-9 (KJV) 1And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead. 2And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. 3And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. 4And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. 5And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Let us look at it from the NLT Judges 4:1-9 (NLT) 1 After Ehud’s death, the Israelites again did evil in the Lord’s sight. 2 So the Lord turned them over to King Jabin of Hazor, a Canaanite king. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth-haggoyim. 3 Sisera, who had 900 iron chariots, ruthlessly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years. Then the people of Israel cried out to the Lord for help. 4 Deborah, the wife of Lappidoth, was a prophet who was judging Israel at that time. 5 She would sit under the Palm of Deborah, between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites would go to her for judgment. 6 One day she sent for Barak son of Abinoam, who lived in Kedesh in the land of Naphtali. She said to him, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: Call out 10,000 warriors from the tribes of Naphtali and Zebulun at Mount Tabor.
First, it is very evident that Deborah was definitely a leader both politically and spiritually. To say otherwise would be to disregard the order of scripture. Notice that verse 4 defines Deborah's office first as a prophetess and secondly as the judge of Israel. When we look at the role of the judges, they were both spiritual and political leaders. Please note verse 5 which states that the "children of Israel" came to her for judgment (Men and women alike, and it could easily be argued that she judged men more than women because of the societal hierarchy of the day.) (And please do not attempt to argue that there is no mention of her spiritual leadership.) If we rightly divide the Word, we understand from studying the book of the Judges, that each judge was the spiritual and political leader of Israel, thus Deborah was no exception.
Secondly when you look at other translations you understand that the Word of the Lord to Barak, came through Deborah, after all in those days the word did not come by any other than the "judge/prophet" which God had appointed, and it would appear that Deborah had been a judge/female prophet for quite some time, possibly as much as 20 years.
Bishoph, great post. I look forward to more from you.
I'll second that motion.
Its refreshing to read a sound scriptural post instead of "below the belt" posts implicating women preachers as lesbians.
Seeing as I know that such homosexual implications would never be tolerated if male preachers were being implicated, it seems only right that such posts not be allowed when discussing women preachers either.
It is my understanding the offending post or posts were already reported but yet they remain. This is not right.
AB publically brought up the lesbian photos and they were deleted. What I am saying here is no different.
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"The only thing worse than murder in the desert is to know where the water is and not tell it!"
I took no artistic license. I said that Deborah encouraged Barak and that she went with him. I see no "artistic license" with that.
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