The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

1) Really? Weren't you the one questioning why God refused to communicate to the pastor that his daughter was dying a horrible death in a car?

2) So an all powerful God, who is also all knowing gets a pass for allowing/creating a hurricane that kills thousands?

1) Yes.

David's foot almost slipped when he just saw the wicked being prosperous. If he was alive today, he'd have to wonder at God's amazing Grace and Mercy. My point in that thread was that these are questions that Christians have when the unexplainable happens and that I empathize with that Pastor's circumstances and understand that kind of questioning.

2) Yes.

I mean, if you really want to accuse God, He gives you the ability. I don't think you'll get very far.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It's only a strong argument when you fail to incorporate God's omniscience.

Baron, are you saying that you wouldn't step in to help if you saw a woman being attacked in the mall parking lot? Or that you wouldn't try to rescue someone from a car that was about to explode? What do you mean you're not "obligated" to be a hero? None of us are "obligated" to do anything; but what we do or don't do speaks volumes about our character and integrity.

Ah but you said it is morally reprehensible not to prevent it. The fact is God is all the things we say He is then it really is a serious thing to ask why an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God allows the murder of six million, men women and children. So he has the ability to stop it but doesn't, either He is not all powerful or not all loving. I don't think that is an absurd conclusion to come to and saying He gets to play by different rules doesn't solve this dilemma.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Really? Weren't you the one questioning why God refused to communicate to the pastor that his daughter was dying a horrible death in a car?

So an all powerful God, who is also all knowing gets a pass for allowing/creating a hurricane that kills thousands?

Do you believe that God allowed/created a hurricane that killed thousands? The truth is, God, who is powerful enough to make the sun stand still and divide the Red Sea, chooses not to perform such *helpful* miracles on a regular basis. So what do YOU think that says about God? I believe that's where trust comes in; we can assume that since God sees a different picture than we do, that He makes decisions in a different way. We don't have the capability to make the same decisions.

We definitely can't dole out judgment the same way God does. When God judges someone, it's righteous because He knows ALL the details. We can't possibly know all the details, therefore we don't get to make the same judgments He does. Based on that: God IS a "Do as I say, not always as I do" God. We CAN'T always follow in His footsteps.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Do you believe that God allowed/created a hurricane that killed thousands? The truth is, God, who is powerful enough to make the sun stand still and divide the Red Sea, chooses not to perform such *helpful* miracles on a regular basis. So what do YOU think that says about God? I believe that's where trust comes in; we can assume that since God sees a different picture than we do, that He makes decisions in a different way. We don't have the capability to make the same decisions.

We definitely can't dole out judgment the same way God does. When God judges someone, it's righteous because He knows ALL the details. We can't possibly know all the details, therefore we don't get to make the same judgments He does. Based on that: God IS a "Do as I say, not always as I do" God. We CAN'T always follow in His footsteps.

So a 2 month old child and her 2 year old sibling deserve to drown in a hurricane because He is all knowing?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Ah but you said it is morally reprehensible not to prevent it. The fact is God is all the things we say He is then it really is a serious thing to ask why an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God allows the murder of six million, men women and children. So he has the ability to stop it but doesn't, either He is not all powerful or not all loving. I don't think that is an absurd conclusion to come to and saying He gets to play by different rules doesn't solve this dilemma.

I disagree. It isn't either/or, and you are assuming that only one of two choices exist:

1. God is all powerful, but He allows people to experience pain because He does not love them.

2. God is all-loving, and therefore doesn't wish anyone to experience pain, but He isn't powerful enough to prevent it.

Are you sure there are no other options?

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I disagree. It isn't either/or, and you are assuming that only one of two choices exist:

1. God is all powerful, but He allows people to experience pain because He does not love them.

2. God is all-loving, and therefore doesn't wish anyone to experience pain, but He isn't powerful enough to prevent it.

Are you sure there are no other options?

The syllogism is rather simple. Are you sure there are other options?

You have dumbed down the syllogism. Experience pain? Years of being raped, tortured and mutilated then killed by a sadistic regime is not the same as burning your hand on the stove.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

So a 2 month old child and her 2 year old sibling deserve to drown in a hurricane because He is all knowing?

Baron, can we move this argument to a new thread? I'm fine with discussing why God allows evil in the world, if you insist, but it really has nothing to do with a bunch of cowardly fire fighters and their greedy mayor.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Baron, can we move this argument to a new thread? I'm fine with discussing why God allows evil in the world, if you insist, but it really has nothing to do with a bunch of cowardly fire fighters and their greedy mayor.

Move it if you like. But it has everything to do with your opening line which is you wish to apply to man but not to God.

You say He is all powerful.

You say He is all knowing.

You say He is benevolent.

Evil and suffering continue to exist. Either He is not powerful enough to end Evil or he is unwilling to stop the innocent from suffering.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Move it if you like. But it has everything to do with your opening line which is you wish to apply to man but not to God.

You say He is all powerful.

He is.

You say He is all knowing.

He is.

You say He is benevolent.

God is love; C.S. Lewis differentiated God's love from "kindness", and that distinction is important to the discussion. We perceive "kindness" as anything that produces emotional happiness in the recipient and unkindness as anything that produces emotional or physical pain; that may not be the case when it comes to an all-encompassing love that takes in our total wellbeing, rather than our temporary feelings.

Evil and suffering continue to exist. Either He is not powerful enough to end Evil or he is unwilling to stop the innocent from suffering.

First of all, the issue of why God allows pain in the world requires a complex answer and is a centuries' old discussion. It is not likely to be resolved on this thread based on our posts alone, as insightful as they may be.

Secondly, I do not agree with you that the humans act by the same rules God does. Therefore, in my opinion, what is morally reprehensible for a human being may not be for God.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

He is.



He is.



God is love; C.S. Lewis differentiated God's love from "kindness", and that distinction is important to the discussion. We perceive "kindness" as anything that produces emotional happiness in the recipient and unkindness as anything that produces emotional or physical pain; that may not be the case when it comes to an all-encompassing love that takes in our total wellbeing, rather than our temporary feelings.



First of all, the issue of why God allows pain in the world requires a complex answer and is a centuries' old discussion. It is not likely to be resolved on this thread based on our posts alone, as insightful as they may be.

Secondly, I do not agree with you that the humans act by the same rules God does. Therefore, in my opinion, what is morally reprehensible for a human being may not be for God.

And do you have anything other than your opinion to point to?